Posted by Chris Witzgall \ (cwitzgal)" )
Hi all;
My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and wanted to learn a bit more about the Freedom Boats.
I have a simple question. What is the life expectancy of carbon fiber masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in general?
Chris
Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)
No one really knows. Freedom began using them over 25 years ago. They don’t wear out and, by all reports, only a few have broken. Like early fiberglass boats, the Freedom masts seem to be massively overbuilt. The wall of my mast is about 1" thick at the reinforced point at which the boom is attached. Perhaps more modern carbon fiber masts are built less massively. I doubt anyone has data, but anecdotally, it does not seem that they break any more often than aluminum masts.
Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio
-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Witzgall (cwitzgal)Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:33 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon masts?
Hi all;
My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and wanted to learn a bit more about the Freedom Boats.
I have a simple question. What is the life expectancy of carbon fiber masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in general?
Chris
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayers should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor.
This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
Chris, Provided you can avoid lightning strike (which causes the carbon fiber to delaminate and very effectively destroys the mast), and provided you can avoid chafe (anchor rodes, dock lines, etc) the mast stand a good chance to last longer than you or me. There may be one inch thickness at strong points, but, even at deck level, I found no more than .25 inches and as little as .125 inches, when I examined the stump after the mainmast had let go at deck level. Watch that chafing ! Themast had let go not because one of the above causes, but because the heel of the mast, stepped on the keelson in an alumimum collar, was secured to the collar with 5/8 nch set bolts, (to prevent rotation of the mast). When I accidentally beached her, in 6 ft surf, the wild
action on the bow was such that those two set bolts chewed the dailight out of the mast walls, and a few weeks later, the mast, having no or little support left on the heel, broke at deck level. As a result I pulled the still standing mizzen mast and “plugged” the inside of the heel with two solid 1" aluminum discs. That mast has never given any trouble in over 24 years.“Chris Witzgall (cwitzgal)” <chris@…> wrote: Hi all; My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and wanted to learn a bit more about the Freedom Boats. I have a simple question. What is the life expectancy of carbon fiber masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in general? Chris
Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You’re invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
Posted by Bob Frew (rfrew@…>)
Dear Alvin,
I got a quote from Middlesex Mutual for insurance it
was $800 until they looked at the survey and found the
carbon fibre mast they withdrew their quote. The next
quote was $1,000. Insurance has to be based on
something.
Regards, Bob Free Spirit Mystic
— “Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@…> wrote:
No one really knows. Freedom began using them over
25 years ago. They
don’t wear out and, by all reports, only a few have
broken. Like early
fiberglass boats, the Freedom masts seem to be
massively overbuilt. The
wall of my mast is about 1" thick at the reinforced
point at which the
boom is attached. Perhaps more modern carbon fiber
masts are built less
massively. I doubt anyone has data, but anecdotally,
it does not seem
that they break any more often than aluminum masts.Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio
-----Original Message-----
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Chris Witzgall
(cwitzgal)
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:33 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon
masts?Hi all;
My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and
wanted to learn a bit
more about the Freedom Boats.I have a simple question. What is the life
expectancy of carbon fiber
masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in
general?Chris
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above
as to tax matters was neither written nor intended
by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be
used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the
purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be
imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or
refers to any such tax advice in promoting,
marketing or recommending a partnership or other
entity, investment plan or arrangement to any
taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support
the promotion or marketing (by a person other than
Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or
matter, and (ii) such taxpayers should seek advice
based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from
an independent tax advisor.This email and any files transmitted with it are
intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to whom they are addressed. If you have
received this email in error please notify the
system manager. If you are not the named addressee
you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this
e-mail.
Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)
Did the bolts thread or stick into the
aluminum disks? If so did you have any trouble getting the holes aligned when
stepping?
The previous owner of my boat did a
similar thing with oak but eventually it abraded where the bolts/pins went into
it.
Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s)
named above and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If
the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have
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From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Minelli
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006
1:19 PM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003]
Life span of carbon masts?
Chris,
\
Provided you can avoid lightning strike (which causes the
carbon fiber to delaminate and very effectively destroys the mast), and
provided you can avoid chafe (anchor rodes, dock lines, etc)
the mast stand a good chance to last longer than you or me.
\
There may be one inch thickness at strong points, but, even at
deck level, I found no more than .25 inches and as little as
.125 inches, when I examined the stump after the mainmast had let go at
deck level. Watch that chafing !
\
Themast had let go not because one of the above
causes, but because the heel of the mast, stepped on the keelson in
an alumimum collar, was secured to the collar with 5/8 nch set
bolts, (to prevent rotation of the mast). When I accidentally
beached her, in 6 ft surf, the wild action on the bow was such that those
two set bolts chewed the dailight out of the mast walls, and a few weeks
later, the mast, having no or little support left on the heel,
broke at deck level.
As a result I pulled the still standing mizzen mast
and “plugged” the inside of the heel with two solid 1"
aluminum discs. That mast has never given any trouble in over 24 years.
“Chris Witzgall
(cwitzgal)” <chris@witzgall.org> wrote:
Hi all;
\
My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and wanted to
learn a bit more about the Freedom Boats.
\
I have a simple question. What is the life expectancy of
carbon fiber masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in general?
\
Chris
\
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You’re
invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
\
Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)
I’ve had insurance through 2 different companies and neither raised an issue about the mast (nor charged as much as what you’ve been quoted, though I don’t know what model boat you have).
From an insurance standpoint, a lost carbon fiber mast is catastrophic because it is so expensive to replace. Maybe they simply didn’t want to take the risk.
-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob FrewSent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:29 PMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon masts?
Dear Alvin,I got a quote from Middlesex Mutual for insurance itwas $800 until they looked at the survey and found thecarbon fibre mast they withdrew their quote. The nextquote was $1,000. Insurance has to be based onsomething.Regards, Bob Free Spirit Mystic— “Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@yahoo.com> wrote:> No one really knows. Freedom began using them over> 25 years ago. They> don’t wear out and, by all reports, only a few have> broken. Like early> fiberglass boats, the Freedom masts seem to be> massively overbuilt. The> wall of my mast is about 1" thick at the reinforced> point at which the> boom is attached. Perhaps more modern carbon fiber> masts are built less> massively. I doubt anyone has data, but anecdotally,> it does not seem> that they break any more often than aluminum masts. > > > Al Lorman> F30 Ab Initio> -----Original Message-----> From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf> Of Chris Witzgall> (cwitzgal)> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:33 AM> To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon> masts?> > > > Hi all;> > My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and> wanted to learn a bit> more about the Freedom Boats.> > I have a simple question. What is the life> expectancy of carbon fiber> masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in> general?> > Chris> > > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above> as to tax matters was neither written nor intended> by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be> used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the> purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be> imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or> refers to any such tax advice in promoting,> marketing or recommending a partnership or other> entity, investment plan or arrangement to any> taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support> the promotion or marketing (by a person other than> Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or> matter, and (ii) such taxpayers should seek advice> based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from> an independent tax advisor.> > This email and any files transmitted with it are> intended solely for the use of the individual or> entity to whom they are addressed. If you have> received this email in error please notify the> system manager. If you are not the named addressee> you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this> e-mail.>
Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)
Certainly replacement costs are much
higher for the carbon fiber masts.
However, a lot seems to depend on
insurance company and how familiar they are.
Current stayed masts on racing boats are
often carbon fiber and racing and weight tradeoffs being what they are some of
these masts break just like their aluminum counterparts. I’m not sure
many insurance companies understand the differences in the Freedom masts or
usage.
In my case the insurance companies had no
issues and did not charge higher rates.
Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s)
named above and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If
the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail,
and delete the original message.
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Frew
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006
1:29 PM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [freedomyachts2003]
Life span of carbon masts?
Dear
Alvin,
I got a quote from Middlesex Mutual for insurance it
was $800 until they looked at the survey and found the
carbon fibre mast they withdrew their quote. The next
quote was $1,000. Insurance has to be based on
something.
Regards, Bob Free Spirit Mystic
— “Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@yahoo.com>
wrote:
No one really knows. Freedom began using them over
25 years ago. They
don’t wear out and, by all reports, only a few have
broken. Like early
fiberglass boats, the Freedom masts seem to be
massively overbuilt. The
wall of my mast is about 1" thick at the reinforced
point at which the
boom is attached. Perhaps more modern carbon fiber
masts are built less
massively. I doubt anyone has data, but anecdotally,
it does not seem
that they break any more often than aluminum masts.Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio
-----Original Message-----
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf
Of Chris Witzgall
(cwitzgal)
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:33 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon
masts?Hi all;
My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and
wanted to learn a bit
more about the Freedom Boats.I have a simple question. What is the life
expectancy of carbon fiber
masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in
general?Chris
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above
as to tax matters was neither written nor intended
by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be
used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the
purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be
imposed under U.S.
tax law. If any person uses or
refers to any such tax advice in promoting,
marketing or recommending a partnership or other
entity, investment plan or arrangement to any
taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support
the promotion or marketing (by a person other than
Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or
matter, and (ii) such taxpayers should seek advice
based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from
an independent tax advisor.This email and any files transmitted with it are
intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to whom they are addressed. If you have
received this email in error please notify the
system manager. If you are not the named addressee
you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this
e-mail.
\
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
I have to agree with Alan. I’ve heard about insurance companies
charging more for carbon fiber masts - Boat US is not one of them -
but I get the impression that they are assuming a conventionally
stayed, but lighter mast. In my opinion, those masts are a greater
risk than a Freedom mast, which may be my own personal bias. But if
you go back through this board and read the number of “how many holes
how close together” posts there are, there’s something just a little
unnerving about those Tartans and C&Cs with spreaders, uppers,
lowers, cleats, etc, etc.
The other point about higher insurance rates would be that - and I
believe this has been discussed on the board too - it’s actually
fairly easy to do a repair job on a carbon fiber mast, rather than
replacing it wholly. Although I’m sure it’s still expensive, it has
to be less expensive than a completely new mast, and because of the
nature of the repair should actually be stronger than the remaining
structure.
On a side-note, one of the pdfs that Michel so graciously put
together states that Tillotson-Pearson had a ‘lifetime warranty’ on
their masts. They’re still in business - any idea if they’d honor
that? Anyone ever tried?
lance
Bright Star
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@…> wrote:
Certainly replacement costs are much higher for the carbon fiber
masts.However, a lot seems to depend on insurance company and how
familiar they
are.Current stayed masts on racing boats are often carbon fiber and
racing and
weight tradeoffs being what they are some of these masts break just
like
their aluminum counterparts. I’m not sure many insurance companies
understand the differences in the Freedom masts or usage.In my case the insurance companies had no issues and did not charge
higher
rates.Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR
Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)
From what I’ve seen on the net the
original warranty was interpreted to mean for the original owner only.
Alan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s)
named above and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If
the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail,
and delete the original message.
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lance_ryley
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006
2:44 PM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re:
Life span of carbon masts?
I have to agree with Alan. I’ve heard about insurance
companies
charging more for carbon fiber masts - Boat US is not one of them -
but I get the impression that they are assuming a conventionally
stayed, but lighter mast. In my opinion, those masts are a greater
risk than a Freedom mast, which may be my own personal bias. But if
you go back through this board and read the number of “how many holes
how close together” posts there are, there’s something just a little
unnerving about those Tartans and C&Cs with spreaders, uppers,
lowers, cleats, etc, etc.
The other point about higher insurance rates would be that - and I
believe this has been discussed on the board too - it’s actually
fairly easy to do a repair job on a carbon fiber mast, rather than
replacing it wholly. Although I’m sure it’s still expensive, it has
to be less expensive than a completely new mast, and because of the
nature of the repair should actually be stronger than the remaining
structure.
On a side-note, one of the pdfs that Michel so graciously put
together states that Tillotson-Pearson had a ‘lifetime warranty’ on
their masts. They’re still in business - any idea if they’d honor
that? Anyone ever tried?
lance
Bright Star
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@…> wrote:
Certainly replacement costs are much higher for the carbon fiber
masts.However, a lot seems to depend on insurance company and how
familiar they
are.Current stayed masts on racing boats are often carbon fiber and
racing and
weight tradeoffs being what they are some of these masts break just
like
their aluminum counterparts. I’m not sure many insurance companies
understand the differences in the Freedom masts or usage.In my case the insurance companies had no issues and did not charge
higher
rates.Alan F-33 Hull
#51 SEAPR
\
Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)
Alas, it was a lifetime guarantee to the original purchaser only.
Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio
-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lance_ryleySent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:44 PMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Life span of carbon masts?
I have to agree with Alan. I’ve heard about insurance companies charging more for carbon fiber masts - Boat US is not one of them - but I get the impression that they are assuming a conventionally stayed, but lighter mast. In my opinion, those masts are a greater risk than a Freedom mast, which may be my own personal bias. But if you go back through this board and read the number of “how many holes how close together” posts there are, there’s something just a little unnerving about those Tartans and C&Cs with spreaders, uppers, lowers, cleats, etc, etc.The other point about higher insurance rates would be that - and I believe this has been discussed on the board too - it’s actually fairly easy to do a repair job on a carbon fiber mast, rather than replacing it wholly. Although I’m sure it’s still expensive, it has to be less expensive than a completely new mast, and because of the nature of the repair should actually be stronger than the remaining structure.On a side-note, one of the pdfs that Michel so graciously put together states that Tillotson-Pearson had a ‘lifetime warranty’ on their masts. They’re still in business - any idea if they’d honor that? Anyone ever tried?lanceBright Star— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz” <akusinitz@…> wrote:>> Certainly replacement costs are much higher for the carbon fiber masts.> > However, a lot seems to depend on insurance company and how familiar they> are.> > Current stayed masts on racing boats are often carbon fiber and racing and> weight tradeoffs being what they are some of these masts break just like> their aluminum counterparts. I’m not sure many insurance companies> understand the differences in the Freedom masts or usage.> > In my case the insurance companies had no issues and did not charge higher> rates.> > Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR>
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayers should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor.
This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Posted by Payne, Doug (doug.payne@…>)
You have heard the normal responses from
the freedom guys regarding the collective wisdom we have all gathered over the
years indicating the carbon fiber masts are essentially bullet proof unless you
drill holes in the wrong place or do something stupid. Another point of view is
to know that entire airplanes are being built out of carbon fiber now. Adam
Aircraft in Denver
is building a business jet and turboprop that are virtually all carbon fiber.
The wing skins, spars, fuselage, bulkheads, etc., are all carbon fiber. Like a
mast, aircraft airframes are subjected to high frequency stress, referred to as
cycles. Aluminum aircraft last way north of 25 years before stress catches up
with them, and the same can be projected for carbon fiber or the FAA wouldn’t
be certifying these new aircraft designs. Again, the conclusion you should draw
is carbon fiber is at least as long lasting as aluminum, probably far longer.
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Douglas M. Payne
Managing
Partner Dallas Ft. Worth
Tatum,
LLC
5956
Sherry Lane
Suite 1000 PMB 101
Dallas, Texas 75225
office ••• 972.496.2700
mobile ••• 972.953.8065
doug.payne@…
www.tatumllc.com
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Witzgall (cwitzgal)
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006
9:33 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Life
span of carbon masts?
Hi all;
\
My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and wanted to
learn a bit more about the Freedom Boats.
\
I have a simple question. What is the life expectancy of
carbon fiber masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in general?
\
Chris
Attachment: (image/jpeg) image002.jpg [not stored]
Posted by Ed Grey (ewlon3@…>)
Or, as insurance companies always do, they’ve found a
way to increase your premiums and their ROI. Rates
aren’t always based on accumulated data.
— “Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@…> wrote:
Maybe they
simply didn’t want to
take the risk.
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Posted by Bob Frew (rfrew@…>)
Thanks for all the responses to my comment about
insurance. I personally have no concern about the
mast. Also I am not about to change my insurance co.
An agressive sales person from Brewer wanted to get my
business and obtained the quotes.
Thanks, Bob
— Frank Minelli <myslo@…> wrote:
Chris,
Provided you can avoid lightning strike (which
causes the carbon fiber to delaminate and very
effectively destroys the mast), and provided you
can avoid chafe (anchor rodes, dock lines, etc)
the mast stand a good chance to last longer than you
or me.There may be one inch thickness at strong points,
but, even at deck level, I found no more than .25
inches and as little as .125 inches, when I
examined the stump after the mainmast had let go at
deck level. Watch that chafing !Themast had let go not because one of the above
causes, but because the heel of the mast, stepped
on the keelson in an alumimum collar, was secured
to the collar with 5/8 nch set bolts, (to prevent
rotation of the mast). When I accidentally beached
her, in 6 ft surf, the wild action on the bow was
such that those two set bolts chewed the dailight
out of the mast walls, and a few weeks later, the
mast, having no or little support left on the heel,
broke at deck level.
As a result I pulled the still standing mizzen
mast and “plugged” the inside of the heel with two
solid 1" aluminum discs. That mast has never given
any trouble in over 24 years.“Chris Witzgall (cwitzgal)” <chris@…>
wrote:
Hi all;My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and
wanted to learn a bit more about the Freedom Boats.I have a simple question. What is the life
expectancy of carbon fiber masts? No specifically
the Freedom masts, but in general?Chris
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You’re invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
Posted by johnpolecat3@… (johnpolecat3@…)
FYI
The 39 pilothouse in Florida I owned shortly, had a unusual break in her mast (main) it broke about 6ft up from top of the deck, looking at it then and with some research it was way to clean, come to find out all the 39s and 44s have two part masts, and the joint is exactly at that break, If i had bought the boat orginally it would of been covered but quess what?? The mizzen had stress marks and hairline cracks in the same spot…
-----Original Message–
From: rfrew@…
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon masts?
Thanks for all the responses to my comment about
insurance. I personally have no concern about the
mast. Also I am not about to change my insurance co.
An agressive sales person from Brewer wanted to get my
business and obtained the quotes.
Thanks, Bob
— Frank Minelli <myslo@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris,
Provided you can avoid lightning strike (which
causes the carbon fiber to delaminate and very
effectively destroys the mast), and provided you
can avoid chafe (anchor rodes, dock lines, etc)
the mast stand a good chance to last longer than you
or me.There may be one inch thickness at strong points,
but, even at deck level, I found no more than .25
inches and as little as .125 inches, when I
examined the stump after the mainmast had let go at
deck level. Watch that chafing !Themast had let go not because one of the above
causes, but because the heel of the mast, stepped
on the keelson in an alumimum collar, was secured
to the collar with 5/8 nch set bolts, (to prevent
rotation of the mast). When I accidentally beached
her, in 6 ft surf, the wild action on the bow was
such that those two set bolts chewed the dailight
out of the mast walls, and a few weeks later, the
mast, having no or little support left on the heel,
broke at deck level.
As a result I pulled the still standing mizzen
mast and “plugged” the inside of the heel with two
solid 1" aluminum discs. That mast has never given
any trouble in over 24 years.“Chris Witzgall (cwitzgal)” <chris@witzgall.org>
wrote:
Hi all;My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and
wanted to learn a bit more about the Freedom Boats.I have a simple question. What is the life
expectancy of carbon fiber masts? No specifically
the Freedom masts, but in general?Chris
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Posted by jerry weinraub (zayde@…>)
Yeah-what the traffic will bear. Cynicism gained thru experience
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Frew
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon masts?
Dear Alvin,I got a quote from Middlesex Mutual for insurance itwas $800 until they looked at the survey and found thecarbon fibre mast they withdrew their quote. The nextquote was $1,000. Insurance has to be based onsomething.Regards, Bob Free Spirit Mystic— “Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@yahoo.com> wrote:> No one really knows. Freedom began using them over> 25 years ago. They> don’t wear out and, by all reports, only a few have> broken. Like early> fiberglass boats, the Freedom masts seem to be> massively overbuilt. The> wall of my mast is about 1" thick at the reinforced> point at which the> boom is attached. Perhaps more modern carbon fiber> masts are built less> massively. I doubt anyone has data, but anecdotally,> it does not seem> that they break any more often than aluminum masts. > > > Al Lorman> F30 Ab Initio> -----Original Message-----> From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf> Of Chris Witzgall> (cwitzgal)> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:33 AM> To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon> masts?> > > > Hi all;> > My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and> wanted to learn a bit> more about the Freedom Boats.> > I have a simple question. What is the life> expectancy of carbon fiber> masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in> general?> > Chris> > > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above> as to tax matters was neither written nor intended> by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be> used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the> purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be> imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or> refers to any such tax advice in promoting,> marketing or recommending a partnership or other> entity, investment plan or arrangement to any> taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support> the promotion or marketing (by a person other than> Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or> matter, and (ii) such taxpayers should seek advice> based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from> an independent tax advisor.> > This email and any files transmitted with it are> intended solely for the use of the individual or> entity to whom they are addressed. If you have> received this email in error please notify the> system manager. If you are not the named addressee> you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this> e-mail.>
Posted by jerry weinraub (zayde@…>)
Lifetime for the first owner… BTW,check out the price of an Aluminum mast plus standing rigging,which you’d have to replace. Price will be about the same as carbon fiber
----- Original Message -----
From: lance_ryley
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Life span of carbon masts?
I have to agree with Alan. I’ve heard about insurance companies charging more for carbon fiber masts - Boat US is not one of them - but I get the impression that they are assuming a conventionally stayed, but lighter mast. In my opinion, those masts are a greater risk than a Freedom mast, which may be my own personal bias. But if you go back through this board and read the number of “how many holes how close together” posts there are, there’s something just a little unnerving about those Tartans and C&Cs with spreaders, uppers, lowers, cleats, etc, etc.The other point about higher insurance rates would be that - and I believe this has been discussed on the board too - it’s actually fairly easy to do a repair job on a carbon fiber mast, rather than replacing it wholly. Although I’m sure it’s still expensive, it has to be less expensive than a completely new mast, and because of the nature of the repair should actually be stronger than the remaining structure.On a side-note, one of the pdfs that Michel so graciously put together states that Tillotson-Pearson had a ‘lifetime warranty’ on their masts. They’re still in business - any idea if they’d honor that? Anyone ever tried?lanceBright Star— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz” <akusinitz@…> wrote:>> Certainly replacement costs are much higher for the carbon fiber masts.> > However, a lot seems to depend on insurance company and how familiar they> are.> > Current stayed masts on racing boats are often carbon fiber and racing and> weight tradeoffs being what they are some of these masts break just like> their aluminum counterparts. I’m not sure many insurance companies> understand the differences in the Freedom masts or usage.> > In my case the insurance companies had no issues and did not charge higher> rates.> > Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR>
Posted by Brain Guptil (sailordude@…>)
FYI
I am on my third freedom, 32, 36/8 and 44. All have splices in the masts about half way up the masts overall length. The two sections are joined using a sleeve splice. I won a bet with my broker, he owes me his net worth.
Brian Guptil S/V Cayenne. tonight, anchored Spa Creek, Annapolis, MD
-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnpolecat3@…Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 5:23 PMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon masts?
FYI
The 39 pilothouse in Florida I owned shortly, had a unusual break in her mast (main) it broke about 6ft up from top of the deck, looking at it then and with some research it was way to clean, come to find out all the 39s and 44s have two part masts, and the joint is exactly at that break, If i had bought the boat orginally it would of been covered but quess what?? The mizzen had stress marks and hairline cracks in the same spot…
-----Original Message–From: rfrew@…To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSent: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 1:30 PMSubject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon masts?
Thanks for all the responses to my comment aboutinsurance. I personally have no concern about themast. Also I am not about to change my insurance co.An agressive sales person from Brewer wanted to get mybusiness and obtained the quotes.Thanks, Bob— Frank Minelli <myslo@yahoo.com> wrote:> Chris,> > Provided you can avoid lightning strike (which> causes the carbon fiber to delaminate and very> effectively destroys the mast), and provided you> can avoid chafe (anchor rodes, dock lines, etc) > the mast stand a good chance to last longer than you> or me.> > There may be one inch thickness at strong points, > but, even at deck level, I found no more than .25> inches and as little as .125 inches, when I> examined the stump after the mainmast had let go at> deck level. Watch that chafing !> > Themast had let go not because one of the above> causes, but because the heel of the mast, stepped> on the keelson in an alumimum collar, was secured> to the collar with 5/8 nch set bolts, (to prevent> rotation of the mast). When I accidentally beached> her, in 6 ft surf, the wild action on the bow was> such that those two set bolts chewed the dailight> out of the mast walls, and a few weeks later, the> mast, having no or little support left on the heel, > broke at deck level. > As a result I pulled the still standing mizzen> mast and “plugged” the inside of the heel with two> solid 1" aluminum discs. That mast has never given> any trouble in over 24 years.> > “Chris Witzgall (cwitzgal)” <chris@witzgall.org>> wrote:> Hi all;> > My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and> wanted to learn a bit more about the Freedom Boats.> > I have a simple question. What is the life> expectancy of carbon fiber masts? No specifically> the Freedom masts, but in general?> > Chris> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> Do you Yahoo!?> Get on board. You’re invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)
I know of one SC 52 that has lost her carbon fiber rig 3 or 4 times.
I was racing against the boat to the Farallones on one occasion that
the rig dropped. Might be why at least one insurance company is gun
shy. Nothing in common with a Freedom rig though other than material
for the mast. I think at least one failure was crew deciding to drill
some holes in the mast.
The lifetime warranty applied to the original owner. Goetz is
probably the guy to talk to about replacements.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:
I have to agree with Alan. I’ve heard about insurance companies
charging more for carbon fiber masts - Boat US is not one of them -
but I get the impression that they are assuming a conventionally
stayed, but lighter mast. In my opinion, those masts are a greater
risk than a Freedom mast, which may be my own personal bias. But if
you go back through this board and read the number of “how many
holes
how close together” posts there are, there’s something just a
little
unnerving about those Tartans and C&Cs with spreaders, uppers,
lowers, cleats, etc, etc.The other point about higher insurance rates would be that - and I
believe this has been discussed on the board too - it’s actually
fairly easy to do a repair job on a carbon fiber mast, rather than
replacing it wholly. Although I’m sure it’s still expensive, it has
to be less expensive than a completely new mast, and because of the
nature of the repair should actually be stronger than the remaining
structure.On a side-note, one of the pdfs that Michel so graciously put
together states that Tillotson-Pearson had a ‘lifetime warranty’ on
their masts. They’re still in business - any idea if they’d honor
that? Anyone ever tried?lance
Bright Star— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@> wrote:Certainly replacement costs are much higher for the carbon fiber
masts.However, a lot seems to depend on insurance company and how
familiar they
are.Current stayed masts on racing boats are often carbon fiber and
racing and
weight tradeoffs being what they are some of these masts break
just
like
their aluminum counterparts. I’m not sure many insurance companies
understand the differences in the Freedom masts or usage.In my case the insurance companies had no issues and did not
charge
higher
rates.Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR
Posted by Herman Schiller (hschiller2@…>)
In case anyone is naiive about this; insurance companies prefer to
collect money and never pay any out. Any excuse (that sounds
rational) to make more money is generally exploited. Herm SV
Impulse (Mull 28)
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Bob Frew <rfrew@…> wrote:
Dear Alvin,
I got a quote from Middlesex Mutual for insurance it
was $800 until they looked at the survey and found the
carbon fibre mast they withdrew their quote. The next
quote was $1,000. Insurance has to be based on
something.Regards, Bob Free Spirit Mystic
— “Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@…> wrote:
No one really knows. Freedom began using them over
25 years ago. They
don’t wear out and, by all reports, only a few have
broken. Like early
fiberglass boats, the Freedom masts seem to be
massively overbuilt. The
wall of my mast is about 1" thick at the reinforced
point at which the
boom is attached. Perhaps more modern carbon fiber
masts are built less
massively. I doubt anyone has data, but anecdotally,
it does not seem
that they break any more often than aluminum masts.Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio
-----Original Message-----
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Chris Witzgall
(cwitzgal)
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:33 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Life span of carbon
masts?Hi all;
My first post to the list, I am boat shopping, and
wanted to learn a bit
more about the Freedom Boats.I have a simple question. What is the life
expectancy of carbon fiber
masts? No specifically the Freedom masts, but in
general?Chris
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above
as to tax matters was neither written nor intended
by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be
used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the
purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be
imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or
refers to any such tax advice in promoting,
marketing or recommending a partnership or other
entity, investment plan or arrangement to any
taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support
the promotion or marketing (by a person other than
Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or
matter, and (ii) such taxpayers should seek advice
based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from
an independent tax advisor.This email and any files transmitted with it are
intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to whom they are addressed. If you have
received this email in error please notify the
system manager. If you are not the named addressee
you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this
e-mail.
Posted by Herman Schiller (hschiller2@…>)
If you look at the number of “freestanding” composite windsurfer
masts are around, and how little trouble they experience despite
people falling on them, I wouldn’t worry about anything other than a
lightning strike. Lastly, I live very close to Cherry Point Marine
Air Station, and the Harriers flying there do not seem to fall out
of the sky with their wings falling off. Harrier airframes are
nearly 100% carbon fiber-epoxy composites. Herm SV Impulse
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:
I have to agree with Alan. I’ve heard about insurance companies
charging more for carbon fiber masts - Boat US is not one of them -
but I get the impression that they are assuming a conventionally
stayed, but lighter mast. In my opinion, those masts are a greater
risk than a Freedom mast, which may be my own personal bias. But
if
you go back through this board and read the number of “how many
holes
how close together” posts there are, there’s something just a
little
unnerving about those Tartans and C&Cs with spreaders, uppers,
lowers, cleats, etc, etc.The other point about higher insurance rates would be that - and I
believe this has been discussed on the board too - it’s actually
fairly easy to do a repair job on a carbon fiber mast, rather than
replacing it wholly. Although I’m sure it’s still expensive, it
has
to be less expensive than a completely new mast, and because of
the
nature of the repair should actually be stronger than the
remaining
structure.On a side-note, one of the pdfs that Michel so graciously put
together states that Tillotson-Pearson had a ‘lifetime warranty’
on
their masts. They’re still in business - any idea if they’d honor
that? Anyone ever tried?lance
Bright Star— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@> wrote:Certainly replacement costs are much higher for the carbon fiber
masts.However, a lot seems to depend on insurance company and how
familiar they
are.Current stayed masts on racing boats are often carbon fiber and
racing and
weight tradeoffs being what they are some of these masts break
just
like
their aluminum counterparts. I’m not sure many insurance
companies
understand the differences in the Freedom masts or usage.In my case the insurance companies had no issues and did not
charge
higher
rates.Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR