Mast base moving around.

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1

Posted by marno_ss (marno@…>)

Gday Guys,

Shortly after I bought Attitudes (Freedom Express 39), I heard a
strange sound coming from the chain locker. After investigation, I
found the base of the mast was moving about 1/4 of an inch forward
and backward. I went to a friendly boat yard and had the mast lifted
and had a look. The plug looked in good condition, but the inside of
the mast looked a little worn, so we waxed up the inside of the mast
and put some epoxy onto the plug. This seemed to solve the problem
and I cruised from New Jersey down the East coast of the US, to the
Bahamas and the Dominican Republic with no problem. However, during
the first few days of our Atlantic crossing, it started up again. I
tried using a syringe to inject some epoxy through the hole at the
base of the mast, but this didn’t work. We survived the trip to the
UK (I’m so glad those masts are massively overbuilt) and I looking
for a permanent fix.

I was hoping that someone has dealt with this problem before, I have
some ideas but would like to hear from people who have a proven fix.

Thanks

Marno

2

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

Marno,

Is the base of the mast bolted to the step with a substantial bolt?
That needs to be there. DOn’t sail without it being bolted. Creaking
sounds from the masts are common. We used to get some noise while at
anchor from our mizzen mast. I assume you’re seeing movement right at
the base? That’s more of a concern than noise alone. It’s been so
long I’ve forgotten what we did to alleviate the creaking. Perhaps
you could try some sort of bushing where the bolt passes through the
step? If it’s bolted and the mast is moving the bolt has to be moving
with it unless the holes in the mast itself are elongated.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “marno_ss” <marno@…>
wrote:

Gday Guys,

Shortly after I bought Attitudes (Freedom Express 39), I heard a
strange sound coming from the chain locker. After investigation, I
found the base of the mast was moving about 1/4 of an inch forward
and backward. I went to a friendly boat yard and had the mast
lifted
and had a look. The plug looked in good condition, but the inside
of
the mast looked a little worn, so we waxed up the inside of the
mast
and put some epoxy onto the plug. This seemed to solve the problem
and I cruised from New Jersey down the East coast of the US, to the
Bahamas and the Dominican Republic with no problem. However,
during
the first few days of our Atlantic crossing, it started up again.
I
tried using a syringe to inject some epoxy through the hole at the
base of the mast, but this didn’t work. We survived the trip to
the
UK (I’m so glad those masts are massively overbuilt) and I looking
for a permanent fix.

I was hoping that someone has dealt with this problem before, I
have
some ideas but would like to hear from people who have a proven fix.

Thanks

Marno

3

Posted by marno_ss (marno@…>)

Thanks for the reply Dave,
The bolt and bracket are there and seem to be in good shape. The
bolt is off to the side and the mast is moving around it.
I have been contemplating pulling the mast, waxing the plug, putting
a thin layer of fibreglass on it and lowering the mast back down
before the epoxy goes off so that it is a perfect fit.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

Marno,

Is the base of the mast bolted to the step with a substantial bolt?
That needs to be there. DOn’t sail without it being bolted.
Creaking
sounds from the masts are common. We used to get some noise while
at
anchor from our mizzen mast. I assume you’re seeing movement right
at
the base? That’s more of a concern than noise alone. It’s been so
long I’ve forgotten what we did to alleviate the creaking. Perhaps
you could try some sort of bushing where the bolt passes through
the
step? If it’s bolted and the mast is moving the bolt has to be
moving
with it unless the holes in the mast itself are elongated.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “marno_ss” <marno@>
wrote:

Gday Guys,

Shortly after I bought Attitudes (Freedom Express 39), I heard a
strange sound coming from the chain locker. After investigation,
I
found the base of the mast was moving about 1/4 of an inch
forward
and backward. I went to a friendly boat yard and had the mast
lifted
and had a look. The plug looked in good condition, but the
inside
of
the mast looked a little worn, so we waxed up the inside of the
mast
and put some epoxy onto the plug. This seemed to solve the
problem
and I cruised from New Jersey down the East coast of the US, to
the
Bahamas and the Dominican Republic with no problem. However,
during
the first few days of our Atlantic crossing, it started up
again.
I
tried using a syringe to inject some epoxy through the hole at
the
base of the mast, but this didn’t work. We survived the trip to
the
UK (I’m so glad those masts are massively overbuilt) and I
looking
for a permanent fix.

I was hoping that someone has dealt with this problem before, I
have
some ideas but would like to hear from people who have a proven
fix.

Thanks

Marno

4

Posted by Geoffrey Schultz (geoff.freedom@geoffschultz.org>)

I had my mast pulled on my 40/40 and had a layer of fiberglass laid
inside of it. We then took the inverted pie-plate base, which had been
covered with mold-release material, and inserted it into the mast as a
mold for the interior of the mast. This worked well and has basically
stopped the creaking.

– Geoff

5

Posted by george herchenroether (g.herk@…>)

The base edge of the mast on our 45 had a slight angle to it and therefore did not stand square. We did not realize it until we pulled the mast for a rebuild of all elements and discovered the angle. It was simple to square it up with a small but precise cut. After it was re-installed the movement disappeared.




On 2/17/07 9:24 AM, “Geoffrey Schultz” <geoff.freedom@…> wrote:

\

I had my mast pulled on my 40/40 and had a layer of fiberglass laid
inside of it. We then took the inverted pie-plate base, which had been
covered with mold-release material, and inserted it into the mast as a
mold for the interior of the mast. This worked well and has basically
stopped the creaking.

– Geoff


\

George E. Herchenroether
65 Kay Street
Newport, RI 02840

401-847-2028
Cell 401-338-5329

6

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Marno,

Many Freedoms with the internal plug system suffered from your
problem. On later Freedoms and on boats with problems, they did away
with the internal plug altogether. Instead, the mastbase is supported
with an external mast ring, just like the one on deck. The mast is
held in place with one throughbolt or two shorter bolts. On my F33,
the base ring was over sized in diameter, so I filled the void around
the masts with polyester filler. On my current Freedom, the rings are
just large enough to have the mast.

It’s important that the base of the mast is supported sideways along
its entire perimeter. This is to prevent stress points on the mast.
The bolt(s) are only there to prevent turning.

In stead of fabricating metal mast rings, you could layup something
of epoxy and glass around the mast. Don’t forget the mold release
agent. You can then also glue the plug in place inside the mast.

Good luck

Michel Capel


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “marno_ss” <marno@…>
wrote:

Gday Guys,

Shortly after I bought Attitudes (Freedom Express 39), I heard a
strange sound coming from the chain locker. After investigation, I
found the base of the mast was moving about 1/4 of an inch forward
and backward. I went to a friendly boat yard and had the mast
lifted
and had a look. The plug looked in good condition, but the inside
of
the mast looked a little worn, so we waxed up the inside of the
mast
and put some epoxy onto the plug. This seemed to solve the problem
and I cruised from New Jersey down the East coast of the US, to the
Bahamas and the Dominican Republic with no problem. However,
during
the first few days of our Atlantic crossing, it started up again.
I
tried using a syringe to inject some epoxy through the hole at the
base of the mast, but this didn’t work. We survived the trip to
the
UK (I’m so glad those masts are massively overbuilt) and I looking
for a permanent fix.

I was hoping that someone has dealt with this problem before, I
have
some ideas but would like to hear from people who have a proven fix.

Thanks

Marno

7

Posted by marno_ss (marno@…>)

Thanks for the help,
This sounds like a great idea, I think I will create a collar the
same way they do the plugs (bolt and epoxy them into place) and then
fill the gap with spartite or something like that. I’ll make sure to
put some sort of mould release onto the mast first though. I don’t
even need to lift the mast. Brilliant!! So simple that I couldn’t
figure it out for myself before.
Cya
Marno

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

Marno,

Many Freedoms with the internal plug system suffered from your
problem. On later Freedoms and on boats with problems, they did
away
with the internal plug altogether. Instead, the mastbase is
supported
with an external mast ring, just like the one on deck. The mast is
held in place with one throughbolt or two shorter bolts. On my F33,
the base ring was over sized in diameter, so I filled the void
around
the masts with polyester filler. On my current Freedom, the rings
are
just large enough to have the mast.

It’s important that the base of the mast is supported sideways
along
its entire perimeter. This is to prevent stress points on the mast.
The bolt(s) are only there to prevent turning.

In stead of fabricating metal mast rings, you could layup something
of epoxy and glass around the mast. Don’t forget the mold release
agent. You can then also glue the plug in place inside the mast.

Good luck

Michel Capel

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “marno_ss” <marno@>
wrote:

Gday Guys,

Shortly after I bought Attitudes (Freedom Express 39), I heard a
strange sound coming from the chain locker. After investigation,
I
found the base of the mast was moving about 1/4 of an inch
forward
and backward. I went to a friendly boat yard and had the mast
lifted
and had a look. The plug looked in good condition, but the
inside
of
the mast looked a little worn, so we waxed up the inside of the
mast
and put some epoxy onto the plug. This seemed to solve the
problem
and I cruised from New Jersey down the East coast of the US, to
the
Bahamas and the Dominican Republic with no problem. However,
during
the first few days of our Atlantic crossing, it started up
again.
I
tried using a syringe to inject some epoxy through the hole at
the
base of the mast, but this didn’t work. We survived the trip to
the
UK (I’m so glad those masts are massively overbuilt) and I
looking
for a permanent fix.

I was hoping that someone has dealt with this problem before, I
have
some ideas but would like to hear from people who have a proven
fix.

Thanks

Marno

8

Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Mould release for mast base ! ? Wrap cellophane ( cigarette pack outer wrapper ) around mast at base. Or, several coats of liquid PVA ( PolyVynil Acetate ) . Seal gap at bottom of mast and step with childrens Plastecene. marno_ss <marno@…> wrote: Thanks for the help, This sounds like a great idea, I think I will create a collar the same way they do the plugs (bolt and epoxy them into place) and then fill the gap with spartite or something like that.
I’ll make sure to put some sort of mould release onto the mast first though. I don’t even need to lift the mast. Brilliant!! So simple that I couldn’t figure it out for myself before.CyaMarno— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:>> Marno,> > Many Freedoms with the internal plug system suffered from your > problem. On later Freedoms and on boats with problems, they did away > with the internal plug altogether. Instead, the mastbase is supported > with an external mast ring, just like the one on deck. The mast is > held in place with one throughbolt or two shorter bolts. On my F33, > the base ring was over sized in diameter, so I filled the void around > the masts with polyester filler. On my current Freedom, the rings are > just
large enough to have the mast.> > It’s important that the base of the mast is supported sideways along > its entire perimeter. This is to prevent stress points on the mast. > The bolt(s) are only there to prevent turning. > > In stead of fabricating metal mast rings, you could layup something > of epoxy and glass around the mast. Don’t forget the mold release > agent. You can then also glue the plug in place inside the mast.> > Good luck> > Michel Capel > > > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “marno_ss” <marno@> > wrote:> >> > Gday Guys,> > > > Shortly after I bought Attitudes (Freedom Express 39), I heard a > > strange sound coming from the chain locker. After investigation, I > > found the base of the mast was
moving about 1/4 of an inch forward > > and backward. I went to a friendly boat yard and had the mast > lifted > > and had a look. The plug looked in good condition, but the inside > of > > the mast looked a little worn, so we waxed up the inside of the > mast > > and put some epoxy onto the plug. This seemed to solve the problem > > and I cruised from New Jersey down the East coast of the US, to the > > Bahamas and the Dominican Republic with no problem. However, > during > > the first few days of our Atlantic crossing, it started up again. > I > > tried using a syringe to inject some epoxy through the hole at the > > base of the mast, but this didn’t work. We survived the trip to > the > > UK (I’m so glad those masts are massively overbuilt) and I looking > > for a permanent fix.> >

I was hoping that someone has dealt with this problem before, I > have > > some ideas but would like to hear from people who have a proven fix.> > > > Thanks> > > > Marno> >>
Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger with Voice

9

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

I would not use spartite. It’s not suitable for supporting
freestanding masts since it is only durometer 60, which is too soft
to prevent movement. Spartite themselves also advice against using
standard Spartite. You can use commonly available PU resin of
durometer 90. It’s much cjeaper also that spartite. You can get it
in specialized hobby mold shops or suppliers for casting concrete
statues and that sort of thing.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “marno_ss” <marno@…>
wrote:

Thanks for the help,
This sounds like a great idea, I think I will create a collar the
same way they do the plugs (bolt and epoxy them into place) and
then
fill the gap with spartite or something like that. I’ll make sure
to
put some sort of mould release onto the mast first though. I
don’t
even need to lift the mast. Brilliant!! So simple that I couldn’t
figure it out for myself before.
Cya
Marno

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Marno,

Many Freedoms with the internal plug system suffered from your
problem. On later Freedoms and on boats with problems, they did
away
with the internal plug altogether. Instead, the mastbase is
supported
with an external mast ring, just like the one on deck. The mast
is
held in place with one throughbolt or two shorter bolts. On my
F33,
the base ring was over sized in diameter, so I filled the void
around
the masts with polyester filler. On my current Freedom, the
rings
are
just large enough to have the mast.

It’s important that the base of the mast is supported sideways
along
its entire perimeter. This is to prevent stress points on the
mast.
The bolt(s) are only there to prevent turning.

In stead of fabricating metal mast rings, you could layup
something
of epoxy and glass around the mast. Don’t forget the mold
release
agent. You can then also glue the plug in place inside the mast.

Good luck

Michel Capel

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “marno_ss” <marno@>
wrote:

Gday Guys,

Shortly after I bought Attitudes (Freedom Express 39), I heard
a
strange sound coming from the chain locker. After
investigation,
I
found the base of the mast was moving about 1/4 of an inch
forward
and backward. I went to a friendly boat yard and had the mast
lifted
and had a look. The plug looked in good condition, but the
inside
of
the mast looked a little worn, so we waxed up the inside of
the
mast
and put some epoxy onto the plug. This seemed to solve the
problem
and I cruised from New Jersey down the East coast of the US,
to
the
Bahamas and the Dominican Republic with no problem. However,
during
the first few days of our Atlantic crossing, it started up
again.
I
tried using a syringe to inject some epoxy through the hole at
the
base of the mast, but this didn’t work. We survived the trip
to
the
UK (I’m so glad those masts are massively overbuilt) and I
looking
for a permanent fix.

I was hoping that someone has dealt with this problem before,
I
have
some ideas but would like to hear from people who have a
proven
fix.

Thanks

Marno

10

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

I used common vaseline succesfully with both Polyester, Epoxy and PU
resins as a mould (mold?) release agent.

Indeed the Plasticine is ideal stuff to make smooth casting molds
and seal gaps.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette
<andrelaviolette@…> wrote:

Mould release for mast base ! ?

Wrap cellophane ( cigarette pack outer wrapper ) around mast at
base. Or, several coats of liquid PVA ( PolyVynil Acetate ) . Seal
gap at bottom of mast and step with childrens Plastecene.

marno_ss <marno@…> wrote:
Thanks for the help,
This sounds like a great idea, I think I will create a collar the
same way they do the plugs (bolt and epoxy them into place) and
then
fill the gap with spartite or something like that. I’ll make sure
to
put some sort of mould release onto the mast first though. I don’t
even need to lift the mast. Brilliant!! So simple that I couldn’t
figure it out for myself before.
Cya
Marno

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Marno,

Many Freedoms with the internal plug system suffered from your
problem. On later Freedoms and on boats with problems, they did
away
with the internal plug altogether. Instead, the mastbase is
supported
with an external mast ring, just like the one on deck. The mast
is
held in place with one throughbolt or two shorter bolts. On my
F33,
the base ring was over sized in diameter, so I filled the void
around
the masts with polyester filler. On my current Freedom, the
rings
are
just large enough to have the mast.

It’s important that the base of the mast is supported sideways
along
its entire perimeter. This is to prevent stress points on the
mast.
The bolt(s) are only there to prevent turning.

In stead of fabricating metal mast rings, you could layup
something
of epoxy and glass around the mast. Don’t forget the mold
release
agent. You can then also glue the plug in place inside the mast.

Good luck

Michel Capel

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “marno_ss” <marno@>
wrote:

Gday Guys,

Shortly after I bought Attitudes (Freedom Express 39), I heard
a
strange sound coming from the chain locker. After
investigation,
I
found the base of the mast was moving about 1/4 of an inch
forward
and backward. I went to a friendly boat yard and had the mast
lifted
and had a look. The plug looked in good condition, but the
inside
of
the mast looked a little worn, so we waxed up the inside of
the
mast
and put some epoxy onto the plug. This seemed to solve the
problem
and I cruised from New Jersey down the East coast of the US,
to
the
Bahamas and the Dominican Republic with no problem. However,
during
the first few days of our Atlantic crossing, it started up
again.
I
tried using a syringe to inject some epoxy through the hole at
the
base of the mast, but this didn’t work. We survived the trip
to
the
UK (I’m so glad those masts are massively overbuilt) and I
looking
for a permanent fix.

I was hoping that someone has dealt with this problem before,
I
have
some ideas but would like to hear from people who have a
proven
fix.

Thanks

Marno

Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada
Messenger with Voice

11

Posted by Roger L. (rogerlov@…>)

What’s PU resin?
Scotty


You can use commonly available PU resin of

durometer 90. It’s much cjeaper also that spartite. You can
get it
in specialized hobby mold shops or suppliers for casting
concrete
statues and that sort of thing.

12

Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)

PU is Polyurethane, in this case polyurethane rubber. Herm

At 09:57 AM 2/20/2007, Roger L. wrote:

What’s PU resin?
Scotty

You can use commonly available PU resin of

durometer 90. It’s much cjeaper also that spartite. You can
get it
in specialized hobby mold shops or suppliers for casting
concrete
statues and that sort of thing.

13

Posted by Patrick Mouligne (pmouligne@…>)

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Roger L.” <rogerlov@…>
wrote:

What’s PU resin?
Scotty

You can use commonly available PU resin of

durometer 90. It’s much cjeaper also that spartite. You can
get it
in specialized hobby mold shops or suppliers for casting
concrete
statues and that sort of thing.
Hello,

I had the same mast rotating problem with my Freedom 44, 15
years ago. The main mast rotated about 15 deg when I was sailing
downwind in heavy air wing to wing on the way back from Bermuda.
I was lucky enough to make it home, under very shortened sail
on the main, without the mast totally coming out of the step (very
tight boom vang and jib/main halyards…)

After talking to TPI at that time (Paul Miller and Brian
Barer) I followed their recommendation for best solution for any
fixes of that problem on all freedoms. Even if you have bolted the
mast to the mast step the amount of carbon fiber will not be enough
to prevent the bolt from eventually “wearing out” the fibers and
getting loose…

1- On the inside of the mast, laminate 2 3/4" thick by 2"
high by 4"long aluminum plates, following the curve of the mast,
diametrically opposed to each other. Use some filled (high strength)
epoxy for bedding and filleting the aluminum plates. Then use
biaxial, 4" wide, glass strips all around the inside of the mast to
glass in these 2 aluminum plates. I would recommend at least 3 layers
of 17oz type of materials.
2- Drill and tap each plate to receive 1/2" SS bolts that will
match the holes drilled in the outside aluminum bottom plates holding
the base of the mast.
3- Put the mast back in place and tighten the bolts in place
using lock washers. Make sure that collar is tight all around.

Depending on the situation at the bottom of each mast it might
be easier to take that collar off to match the holes properly and
then put the collar back in. (make sure to mark everything properly
before removing so it all matches…) Depending on proper access with
the mast in place
it might be easier to use one 1/2" stainless steel threaded rod to go
through with a couple of lock nuts at each end.

Neither one of my masts ever turned again after that fix. It
might sound a bit complicated but it really is not if you have a good
fiberglass man…

Patrick Mouligne F44 #85 “Frog-Kiss”

PS: Friendly reminder, Frog-Kiss is still on the market. She is
beautiful and has many proven offshore single/short handed miles,
including 2 overall fleet victories in Bermuda 1-2. She is better
than new and probably would cost over $3/4 million to duplicate
today.
She is presently in Virgin Gorda, BVI, and I shall bring her
back to Newport in the spring.

14

Posted by Greg (gcantori@…>)

That’s great info!
Could you post a diagram or link to help us better visualize the fix?
I epoxied the inside of my F39 pilothouse mainmast to make a tighter
fit on the fiberglass tophat, fixing the lateral movement issue but
not the twisting problem. — In
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Patrick Mouligne” <pmouligne@…>
wrote:

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Roger L.” <rogerlov@>
wrote:

What’s PU resin?
Scotty

You can use commonly available PU resin of

durometer 90. It’s much cjeaper also that spartite. You can
get it
in specialized hobby mold shops or suppliers for casting
concrete
statues and that sort of thing.
Hello,

   I had the same mast rotating problem with my Freedom 44, 15

years ago. The main mast rotated about 15 deg when I was sailing
downwind in heavy air wing to wing on the way back from Bermuda.
I was lucky enough to make it home, under very shortened
sail
on the main, without the mast totally coming out of the step (very
tight boom vang and jib/main halyards…)

   After talking to TPI at that time (Paul Miller and Brian

Barer) I followed their recommendation for best solution for any
fixes of that problem on all freedoms. Even if you have bolted the
mast to the mast step the amount of carbon fiber will not be enough
to prevent the bolt from eventually “wearing out” the fibers and
getting loose…

   1- On the inside of the mast, laminate 2  3/4" thick by 2"

high by 4"long aluminum plates, following the curve of the mast,
diametrically opposed to each other. Use some filled (high
strength)
epoxy for bedding and filleting the aluminum plates. Then use
biaxial, 4" wide, glass strips all around the inside of the mast to
glass in these 2 aluminum plates. I would recommend at least 3
layers
of 17oz type of materials.
2- Drill and tap each plate to receive 1/2" SS bolts that
will
match the holes drilled in the outside aluminum bottom plates
holding
the base of the mast.
3- Put the mast back in place and tighten the bolts in place
using lock washers. Make sure that collar is tight all around.

   Depending on the situation at the bottom of each mast it

might

be easier to take that collar off to match the holes properly and
then put the collar back in. (make sure to mark everything properly
before removing so it all matches…) Depending on proper access
with
the mast in place
it might be easier to use one 1/2" stainless steel threaded rod to
go
through with a couple of lock nuts at each end.

   Neither one of my masts ever turned again after that fix. It

might sound a bit complicated but it really is not if you have a
good
fiberglass man…

   Patrick Mouligne F44 #85 "Frog-Kiss"

  PS: Friendly reminder, Frog-Kiss is still on the market. She

is

beautiful and has many proven offshore single/short handed miles,
including 2 overall fleet victories in Bermuda 1-2. She is better
than new and probably would cost over $3/4 million to duplicate
today.
She is presently in Virgin Gorda, BVI, and I shall bring her
back to Newport in the spring.