Mild Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information

lance_ryley · December 28, 2004, 2:07pm

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

Thom brings up some interesting issues about an Owner’s Association.
Where would $40 each go? He seems to think that that would be clear
profit for some one individual, but I think that’s baseless. If you
follow the Nonsuch example, that money goes toward providing
insurance discounts, pays for rendezvous, helps to provide services
and replacement parts at a discount… and yes, defrays costs of
operating a website. in other words, it remains the owners’ money,
working hopefully toward the greater good of the entire boating
community. Perhaps, in its first year of operation, $40 is too steep
and should be waived for ‘founding members,’ and web site hosting can
be subsidized by a few die-hard, benevolent donators who feel the
whole thing is worth doing. Maybe, once we’ve established an active
membership, bylaws, lists of goals and intents, etc. then we can
worry about how much we each pay for dues. We’re pretty early in this
process and I think there’s a lot of room for discussion as to how an
organization is… well… organized.

Secondly, I hope Thom’s not right about an East Coast - West Coast
bias. Personally, I don’t answer a post unless I feel I have
something useful to contribute. In most cases, unless the poster
specifically states their location, I don’t have a clue as to where
they are from. I hope that he’s not basing his experience on the one
question that he stated about his rudder - I know that had I read
that post, I wouldn’t have had the slightest idea how to solve it.
I’ve had questions that have never been answered either - I always
assumed it was because the question was either too esoteric, no one
had experience with it, or I had asked during a ‘slow’ period on the
board. Maybe I should go back and look at the lack of response as
a “New England” bias, or a “new boat owner” bias, or a cat-ketch
bias. Please. Maybe I’m naive but, being coastally ambidextrous
myself, I don’t see the connection.

Lastly, Thom makes some interesting comments about posting times,
employment, and work ethic. It’s true - some of us do post during
what would be considered work hours. Some of us are probably stealing
company time. Some of us may find ourselves in a lull between
important projects and find the time to post. Some of us may have
union jobs that afford us “coffee” or “cigarette” breaks, which we
choose to use relaxing with our favorite websites. Some of us may be
retired. Some of us might have the clocks set wrong on our PC’s, or
have times that are bolloxed by time zone translations on servers
outside our home states. Some of us might be in other countries.

the point is that I don’t think that it’s really fair or productive
to pass judgment on people, or to think you know anything about their
work ethic by looking at the timestamp on an email.

The bottom line is that we have an opportunity to put together a
Freedom Owner’s Group (FOG - Thanks, Capn Jacqui) and that group can
be organized in any way the members of the group wish it to. It’s
like Democracy - if you want a voice in the construction,
organization, goals, and direction of the group, then participate.
But you also have the Freedom not to.

This is all I’m going to say on the matter on the board. Wishing
everyone a happy new year - only 4 months (in NE anyway) til bottom
paint!

Allen_McClung · December 28, 2004, 3:49pm

Posted by Allen McClung (amcclung@…>)

Very well said, Lance.

I’ve only been a sailing boat-owner a couple of seasons, but I love it and hope to sail the rest of my life. I am semi-retired – I have to do something when the season is over, thus “semi.” When I do work, my area of interest is conflict resolution with groups of people. Generally, what brings people together to form a group is common interest. The common interest in this group is sailing a particular brand of boat. So, a group of Freedom boat sailors got together and signed up for a free Internet forum (Yahoo) to yak about their good times, bad times, technical problems, experiences–all things related to sailing their boats. Then a couple of months ago somebody suggested that the group could do things better if it had a more formal organization on a different part of the Internet, something about better able to search for past threads of interest, like wish-bones or leaking toilets. The key element was “better” able to do things. Good idea. I joined up because the site looked better and was easier to move around. That’s the SailorsPub.com site. Not much is happening on that site, but it does look better than Yahoo and has a nifty clock.

I’ll put my two cents in here for what it’s worth. All organizations need structure. Who’s running the show for the benefit of the group. If there were a forum moderator then questions from the membership could be asked and not just hang there. The moderator would take charge of the query (if needed) and ask the group for comment/answers. Otherwise, if nobody knows anything about the question/problem then nothing happens and the person who asks the question feels ignored or stupid or unimportant. So, that’s one small area of concern I see. Another issue is money from the group to sustain a new/better site. I’ve expressed my willingness to pony up some bucks for anybody who wants to take on the job. I’m a believer in the “you get what you pay for” theory of economics.

Anyway, I’m done. I’ve met (electronically) a very nice group of folks on this site. I’ve exchanged boat photos, e-mails and received good advice and tips. Thanks to everybody for that. I’m leaving in an hour or so to take my boat up to a shop about an hour away from here where I will continue the labor of love to make my Freedom 21 look like the “engineered” Freedom 21 I discovered in this community of sailors. I will also eye-ball the F-25 that’s for sale at the same shop, and continue to plot, scheme, and rationalize my way to how I really do need two boats.

Happy New Year

Allen

----- Original Message -----
From: lance_ryley
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:07 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Mild Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information
Thom brings up some interesting issues about an Owner’s Association. Where would $40 each go? He seems to think that that would be clear profit for some one individual, but I think that’s baseless. If you follow the Nonsuch example, that money goes toward providing insurance discounts, pays for rendezvous, helps to provide services and replacement parts at a discount… and yes, defrays costs of operating a website. in other words, it remains the owners’ money, working hopefully toward the greater good of the entire boating community. Perhaps, in its first year of operation, $40 is too steep and should be waived for ‘founding members,’ and web site hosting can be subsidized by a few die-hard, benevolent donators who feel the whole thing is worth doing. Maybe, once we’ve established an active membership, bylaws, lists of goals and intents, etc. then we can worry about how much we each pay for dues. We’re pretty early in this process and I think there’s a lot of room for discussion as to how an organization is… well… organized.Secondly, I hope Thom’s not right about an East Coast - West Coast bias. Personally, I don’t answer a post unless I feel I have something useful to contribute. In most cases, unless the poster specifically states their location, I don’t have a clue as to where they are from. I hope that he’s not basing his experience on the one question that he stated about his rudder - I know that had I read that post, I wouldn’t have had the slightest idea how to solve it. I’ve had questions that have never been answered either - I always assumed it was because the question was either too esoteric, no one had experience with it, or I had asked during a ‘slow’ period on the board. Maybe I should go back and look at the lack of response as a “New England” bias, or a “new boat owner” bias, or a cat-ketch bias. Please. Maybe I’m naive but, being coastally ambidextrous myself, I don’t see the connection.Lastly, Thom makes some interesting comments about posting times, employment, and work ethic. It’s true - some of us do post during what would be considered work hours. Some of us are probably stealing company time. Some of us may find ourselves in a lull between important projects and find the time to post. Some of us may have union jobs that afford us “coffee” or “cigarette” breaks, which we choose to use relaxing with our favorite websites. Some of us may be retired. Some of us might have the clocks set wrong on our PC’s, or have times that are bolloxed by time zone translations on servers outside our home states. Some of us might be in other countries.the point is that I don’t think that it’s really fair or productive to pass judgment on people, or to think you know anything about their work ethic by looking at the timestamp on an email. The bottom line is that we have an opportunity to put together a Freedom Owner’s Group (FOG - Thanks, Capn Jacqui) and that group can be organized in any way the members of the group wish it to. It’s like Democracy - if you want a voice in the construction, organization, goals, and direction of the group, then participate. But you also have the Freedom not to.This is all I’m going to say on the matter on the board. Wishing everyone a happy new year - only 4 months (in NE anyway) til bottom paint!

Doug_Payne · December 28, 2004, 6:39pm

Posted by Doug Payne (doug.payne@…>)

I like Lance’s thoughtful comments
on Tom’s post. Forming this association is in its infancy. I think it is
very presumptive to assume someone will profit from this endeavor. First of all
it will no doubt be organized as a not for profit entity. In time there could
be paid staff, but more likely it will be people volunteering their time. The
$40 is a wild guess on what fees will be required and is based on what a couple
other associations charge. A board needs to be formed and will be necessary to
organize an entity, potential services need to be explored, a budget
constructed, fees set, etc. Members will see the books, if that is the way it
is set up. I think we are getting way ahead of ourselves here with some of the
comments that are flying around. Let’s be a little patient and applaud those
that are giving of their time to explore something that can benefit us all.

Douglas M. Payne
Managing Partner Arizona Colorado
Tatum Partners
480-614-4915 Office
480-236-4561 Mobile
480-614-4916 Fax
doug.payne@…
TATUM PARTNERS
Financial and Information Technology Leadership
Tatum CFO Partners, LLP - Tatum CIO Partners, LLP www.tatumpartners.com
This electronic message is intended for the person or entity
to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
information. Any review, dissemination, copying, printing, or other use of this
electronic message by persons or entities other than the addressee is
prohibited. If you received this electronic message in error, please contact the
sender immediately and delete the electronic message from any and all
computers.

-----Original Message-----
From: lance_ryley
[mailto:lance_ryley@…]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004
7:07 AM
To:
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Mild
Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information

Thom brings up some interesting issues about an
Owner’s Association.
Where would $40 each go? He seems to think that
that would be clear
profit for some one individual, but I think that’s
baseless. If you
follow the Nonsuch example, that money goes toward
providing
insurance discounts, pays for rendezvous, helps to
provide services
and replacement parts at a discount… and yes,
defrays costs of
operating a website. in other words, it remains
the owners’ money,
working hopefully toward the greater good of the
entire boating
community. Perhaps, in its first year of operation,
$40 is too steep
and should be waived for ‘founding members,’ and
web site hosting can
be subsidized by a few die-hard, benevolent
donators who feel the
whole thing is worth doing. Maybe, once we’ve
established an active
membership, bylaws, lists of goals and intents,
etc. then we can
worry about how much we each pay for dues. We’re
pretty early in this
process and I think there’s a lot of room for
discussion as to how an
organization is… well… organized.

Secondly, I hope Thom’s not right about an East
Coast - West Coast
bias. Personally, I don’t answer a post unless I
feel I have
something useful to contribute. In most cases,
unless the poster
specifically states their location, I don’t have a
clue as to where
they are from. I hope that he’s not basing his
experience on the one
question that he stated about his rudder - I know
that had I read
that post, I wouldn’t have had the slightest idea
how to solve it.
I’ve had questions that have never been answered
either - I always
assumed it was because the question was either too
esoteric, no one
had experience with it, or I had asked during a
‘slow’ period on the
board. Maybe I should go back and look at the lack
of response as
a “New England” bias, or a “new
boat owner” bias, or a cat-ketch
bias. Please. Maybe I’m naive but, being coastally
ambidextrous
myself, I don’t see the connection.

Lastly, Thom makes some interesting comments about
posting times,
employment, and work ethic. It’s true - some of us
do post during
what would be considered work hours. Some of us
are probably stealing
company time. Some of us may find ourselves in a
lull between
important projects and find the time to post. Some
of us may have
union jobs that afford us “coffee” or
“cigarette” breaks, which we
choose to use relaxing with our favorite websites.
Some of us may be
retired. Some of us might have the clocks set
wrong on our PC’s, or
have times that are bolloxed by time zone
translations on servers
outside our home states. Some of us might be in
other countries.

the point is that I don’t think that it’s really
fair or productive
to pass judgment on people, or to think you know
anything about their
work ethic by looking at the timestamp on an
email.

The bottom line is that we have an opportunity to
put together a
Freedom Owner’s Group (FOG - Thanks, Capn Jacqui)
and that group can
be organized in any way the members of the group
wish it to. It’s
like Democracy - if you want a voice in the
construction,
organization, goals, and direction of the group,
then participate.
But you also have the Freedom not to.

This is all I’m going to say on the matter on the
board. Wishing
everyone a happy new year - only 4 months (in NE
anyway) til bottom
paint!

\

Bergeron · December 30, 2004, 3:38am

Posted by Bergeron (mbergero@…>)

I have been following this conversation for some time. I am sorry, I am lost. It seems that the process has overtaken the rational thoughts that may have started this association thing. There is a lot of energy being spent (wasted) fretting over the minutiae of an organization which has yet to reveal to me its true value in comparison to our present site with the exception of stroking some egos. This association is taking on a corporate personality. I, myself, dislike committees, or committees for the establishment of committees, or the sub-sub committees formed to oversee the committee on committees, etc. Do we really need this? Other than bells and whistles and a warm feeling of self-importance, what realistically will this association accomplish over and above what the capabilities of our current system offer? Group clout? We have that. If we as a group have an issue we ban together and address it. Regattas? If it’s posted here, we will know. Technical help? Well, we used to have that before being bludgeoned with hierarchy, but I think that would return once the administrators settle down and the sailors take back the site. You want to take a comfortable coffee house where everyone feels free to interact, and turn it into an elite (yes, I said elite) cigar club where we all sit around wearing ascots and drinking 12 year old scotch? Might just as well go buy a Hinckley. WE ARE SAILORS. Let’s get back to what we love.

I propose a new site which is a forum for all Freedom owners and enthusiasts to gather and exchange supportive and useful information about our boats, share stories about our adventures and connect with each other. It would be a place to gather common issues and problems and even use our strength as a cohesive group to make changes at Freedom Yachts or elsewhere. We could even have an archive searchable using our common Windows applications. Let’s call this site freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com. Sound familiar? Best of all, it’s free. If I have insulted or otherwise upset anyone with this, tough. The beauty of this or any other forum is the freedom (hey, just like the boat!) to express our opinion. Let’s go sailing.

I would like to start another poll. Who wants to see this forum return to it’s prevoiusly functional format? I have one check in the ‘yes’ column.

----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Payne
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: [freedomyachts2003] Mild Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information

I like Lance’s thoughtful comments on Tom’s post. Forming this association is in its infancy. I think it is very presumptive to assume someone will profit from this endeavor. First of all it will no doubt be organized as a not for profit entity. In time there could be paid staff, but more likely it will be people volunteering their time. The $40 is a wild guess on what fees will be required and is based on what a couple other associations charge. A board needs to be formed and will be necessary to organize an entity, potential services need to be explored, a budget constructed, fees set, etc. Members will see the books, if that is the way it is set up. I think we are getting way ahead of ourselves here with some of the comments that are flying around. Let’s be a little patient and applaud those that are giving of their time to explore something that can benefit us all.

Douglas M. Payne
Managing Partner Arizona Colorado
Tatum Partners
480-614-4915 Office
480-236-4561 Mobile
480-614-4916 Fax
doug.payne@…
TATUM PARTNERS
Financial and Information Technology Leadership
Tatum CFO Partners, LLP - Tatum CIO Partners, LLP www.tatumpartners.com
This electronic message is intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any review, dissemination, copying, printing, or other use of this electronic message by persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. If you received this electronic message in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete the electronic message from any and all computers.

-----Original Message-----From: lance_ryley [mailto:lance_ryley@…] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 7:07 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Mild Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information

Thom brings up some interesting issues about an Owner’s Association. Where would $40 each go? He seems to think that that would be clear profit for some one individual, but I think that’s baseless. If you follow the Nonsuch example, that money goes toward providing insurance discounts, pays for rendezvous, helps to provide services and replacement parts at a discount… and yes, defrays costs of operating a website. in other words, it remains the owners’ money, working hopefully toward the greater good of the entire boating community. Perhaps, in its first year of operation, $40 is too steep and should be waived for ‘founding members,’ and web site hosting can be subsidized by a few die-hard, benevolent donators who feel the whole thing is worth doing. Maybe, once we’ve established an active membership, bylaws, lists of goals and intents, etc. then we can worry about how much we each pay for dues. We’re pretty early in this process and I think there’s a lot of room for discussion as to how an organization is… well… organized.Secondly, I hope Thom’s not right about an East Coast - West Coast bias. Personally, I don’t answer a post unless I feel I have something useful to contribute. In most cases, unless the poster specifically states their location, I don’t have a clue as to where they are from. I hope that he’s not basing his experience on the one question that he stated about his rudder - I know that had I read that post, I wouldn’t have had the slightest idea how to solve it. I’ve had questions that have never been answered either - I always assumed it was because the question was either too esoteric, no one had experience with it, or I had asked during a ‘slow’ period on the board. Maybe I should go back and look at the lack of response as a “New England” bias, or a “new boat owner” bias, or a cat-ketch bias. Please. Maybe I’m naive but, being coastally ambidextrous myself, I don’t see the connection.Lastly, Thom makes some interesting comments about posting times, employment, and work ethic. It’s true - some of us do post during what would be considered work hours. Some of us are probably stealing company time. Some of us may find ourselves in a lull between important projects and find the time to post. Some of us may have union jobs that afford us “coffee” or “cigarette” breaks, which we choose to use relaxing with our favorite websites. Some of us may be retired. Some of us might have the clocks set wrong on our PC’s, or have times that are bolloxed by time zone translations on servers outside our home states. Some of us might be in other countries.the point is that I don’t think that it’s really fair or productive to pass judgment on people, or to think you know anything about their work ethic by looking at the timestamp on an email. The bottom line is that we have an opportunity to put together a Freedom Owner’s Group (FOG - Thanks, Capn Jacqui) and that group can be organized in any way the members of the group wish it to. It’s like Democracy - if you want a voice in the construction, organization, goals, and direction of the group, then participate. But you also have the Freedom not to.This is all I’m going to say on the matter on the board. Wishing everyone a happy new year - only 4 months (in NE anyway) til bottom paint!

Dave · December 30, 2004, 6:47am

Posted by Dave (ddixson@…>)

I agree with bergeron!

----- Original Message -----
From: Bergeron
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Mild Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information

I have been following this conversation for some time. I am sorry, I am lost. It seems that the process has overtaken the rational thoughts that may have started this association thing. There is a lot of energy being spent (wasted) fretting over the minutiae of an organization which has yet to reveal to me its true value in comparison to our present site with the exception of stroking some egos. This association is taking on a corporate personality. I, myself, dislike committees, or committees for the establishment of committees, or the sub-sub committees formed to oversee the committee on committees, etc. Do we really need this? Other than bells and whistles and a warm feeling of self-importance, what realistically will this association accomplish over and above what the capabilities of our current system offer? Group clout? We have that. If we as a group have an issue we ban together and address it. Regattas? If it’s posted here, we will know. Technical help? Well, we used to have that before being bludgeoned with hierarchy, but I think that would return once the administrators settle down and the sailors take back the site. You want to take a comfortable coffee house where everyone feels free to interact, and turn it into an elite (yes, I said elite) cigar club where we all sit around wearing ascots and drinking 12 year old scotch? Might just as well go buy a Hinckley. WE ARE SAILORS. Let’s get back to what we love.

I propose a new site which is a forum for all Freedom owners and enthusiasts to gather and exchange supportive and useful information about our boats, share stories about our adventures and connect with each other. It would be a place to gather common issues and problems and even use our strength as a cohesive group to make changes at Freedom Yachts or elsewhere. We could even have an archive searchable using our common Windows applications. Let’s call this site freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com. Sound familiar? Best of all, it’s free. If I have insulted or otherwise upset anyone with this, tough. The beauty of this or any other forum is the freedom (hey, just like the boat!) to express our opinion. Let’s go sailing.

I would like to start another poll. Who wants to see this forum return to it’s prevoiusly functional format? I have one check in the ‘yes’ column.

----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Payne
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: [freedomyachts2003] Mild Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information

I like Lance’s thoughtful comments on Tom’s post. Forming this association is in its infancy. I think it is very presumptive to assume someone will profit from this endeavor. First of all it will no doubt be organized as a not for profit entity. In time there could be paid staff, but more likely it will be people volunteering their time. The $40 is a wild guess on what fees will be required and is based on what a couple other associations charge. A board needs to be formed and will be necessary to organize an entity, potential services need to be explored, a budget constructed, fees set, etc. Members will see the books, if that is the way it is set up. I think we are getting way ahead of ourselves here with some of the comments that are flying around. Let’s be a little patient and applaud those that are giving of their time to explore something that can benefit us all.

Douglas M. Payne
Managing Partner Arizona Colorado
Tatum Partners
480-614-4915 Office
480-236-4561 Mobile
480-614-4916 Fax
doug.payne@…
TATUM PARTNERS
Financial and Information Technology Leadership
Tatum CFO Partners, LLP - Tatum CIO Partners, LLP www.tatumpartners.com
This electronic message is intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any review, dissemination, copying, printing, or other use of this electronic message by persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. If you received this electronic message in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete the electronic message from any and all computers.

-----Original Message-----From: lance_ryley [mailto:lance_ryley@…] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 7:07 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Mild Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information

Thom brings up some interesting issues about an Owner’s Association. Where would $40 each go? He seems to think that that would be clear profit for some one individual, but I think that’s baseless. If you follow the Nonsuch example, that money goes toward providing insurance discounts, pays for rendezvous, helps to provide services and replacement parts at a discount… and yes, defrays costs of operating a website. in other words, it remains the owners’ money, working hopefully toward the greater good of the entire boating community. Perhaps, in its first year of operation, $40 is too steep and should be waived for ‘founding members,’ and web site hosting can be subsidized by a few die-hard, benevolent donators who feel the whole thing is worth doing. Maybe, once we’ve established an active membership, bylaws, lists of goals and intents, etc. then we can worry about how much we each pay for dues. We’re pretty early in this process and I think there’s a lot of room for discussion as to how an organization is… well… organized.Secondly, I hope Thom’s not right about an East Coast - West Coast bias. Personally, I don’t answer a post unless I feel I have something useful to contribute. In most cases, unless the poster specifically states their location, I don’t have a clue as to where they are from. I hope that he’s not basing his experience on the one question that he stated about his rudder - I know that had I read that post, I wouldn’t have had the slightest idea how to solve it. I’ve had questions that have never been answered either - I always assumed it was because the question was either too esoteric, no one had experience with it, or I had asked during a ‘slow’ period on the board. Maybe I should go back and look at the lack of response as a “New England” bias, or a “new boat owner” bias, or a cat-ketch bias. Please. Maybe I’m naive but, being coastally ambidextrous myself, I don’t see the connection.Lastly, Thom makes some interesting comments about posting times, employment, and work ethic. It’s true - some of us do post during what would be considered work hours. Some of us are probably stealing company time. Some of us may find ourselves in a lull between important projects and find the time to post. Some of us may have union jobs that afford us “coffee” or “cigarette” breaks, which we choose to use relaxing with our favorite websites. Some of us may be retired. Some of us might have the clocks set wrong on our PC’s, or have times that are bolloxed by time zone translations on servers outside our home states. Some of us might be in other countries.the point is that I don’t think that it’s really fair or productive to pass judgment on people, or to think you know anything about their work ethic by looking at the timestamp on an email. The bottom line is that we have an opportunity to put together a Freedom Owner’s Group (FOG - Thanks, Capn Jacqui) and that group can be organized in any way the members of the group wish it to. It’s like Democracy - if you want a voice in the construction, organization, goals, and direction of the group, then participate. But you also have the Freedom not to.This is all I’m going to say on the matter on the board. Wishing everyone a happy new year - only 4 months (in NE anyway) til bottom paint!

Kevin_Ogden · December 30, 2004, 1:22pm

Posted by Kevin Ogden (kcogden@…>)

Somehow this whole forum has changed character dramatically over the last couple months or so. Seems to be a small group of people interested primarily in forming this organization thing, backbiting, etc… that have nothing technically to offer regards the Freedom series, and have steered the entire board away from useful interesting topics to fruitless and dissipative exchanges about some ridiculous “owners group” and associated bickering.

I agree that the whole concept has shown no fruit whatsoever in terms of practical usefulness for owners of Freedoms.
Get on with sailing and discussing practical and helpful points for other Freedom owners, and lose the so far provably useless “owners group” concept.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Mild Rant of Exasperation with No Technical Information