Mixing Battery types?

Posted by Alan (akusinitz@…>)

When I purchased my F33 there were 3 group 27 gel cells. 2 in the house
bank one for the starter. These seem to be in good shape. I want to
increase my house bank and I plan to move the starter gel cell to add
it to the house bank and buy a new starter battery.

In the interest of weight reduction my plan is to buy a smaller starter
battery. To ensure adequate cranking capacity but lowest weight an
optima battery seems a good choice (spiralcell AGM). My alternator
regulator can support different batter types in each bank but my
shorepower xantrex charger can not. I don’t see any reason why charging
an AGM using a gel cell profile would be a problem (although the
opposite would be) or why combining banks occasionally (both on battery
switch) would be a problem.

Does anyone disagree?

Thanks,
Alan F-33 Hull#51 1982 SEAPR

Posted by Brian Guptil (sailordude@…>)

Alan

I have successfully used a small (small car size) DiHard automotive battery in a “STSRTER ONLY” battery. As such, I can select the shape to fit available space. It is isolated from the house battery and the the charging system because of the different re-charge needs fore a starter battery and a house battery. In season, I use a portable charger to re-charge this battery not more then once a month. The charger I use is a three phase, 10 Amp and it seldom needs to charge for more the 30 minutes. I have never needed to switch in the house batteries to assist. I have done this when off the grid for 6 months at a time. Of course, their is a switch to tie the systems together in an emergency.

Brian



On 5/22/07 6:08 AM, “Alan” <akusinitz@…> wrote:

\

When I purchased my F33 there were 3 group 27 gel cells. 2 in the house
bank one for the starter. These seem to be in good shape. I want to
increase my house bank and I plan to move the starter gel cell to add
it to the house bank and buy a new starter battery.

In the interest of weight reduction my plan is to buy a smaller starter
battery. To ensure adequate cranking capacity but lowest weight an
optima battery seems a good choice (spiralcell AGM). My alternator
regulator can support different batter types in each bank but my
shorepower xantrex charger can not. I don’t see any reason why charging
an AGM using a gel cell profile would be a problem (although the
opposite would be) or why combining banks occasionally (both on battery
switch) would be a problem.

Does anyone disagree?

Thanks,
Alan F-33 Hull#51 1982 SEAPR


\

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Alan,

Batteries that were charged and discharged along different schedules
in the past should better not be combined in one group. The charger
will use the worst battery (highest internal resistance) as a
reference for the automatic charging programme and thereby degrade
the good batteries in the group quickly to the level of performance
of the worst battery. Usually the starter battery is in better shape
because it’s hardly used and immediately recharged after short use.

Possibly, your starter battery has thin plates for high amp cranking
and your house batteries have thicker plates for deeper cycling.
This asks for different charging times in the different charge
phases. Combining these types of batteries in one group confuses
your charger and may result in less than optimal charging.

I would keep your starter battery and add a second house bank if
that’s possible (you then have three charge groups) If that’s not
possible, I would follow your plan and live with the idea that I’m
maltreating some of the batteries. In a few years, you could replace
the whole house bank into a group of identical age and type
batteries.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Alan” <akusinitz@…>
wrote:

When I purchased my F33 there were 3 group 27 gel cells. 2 in the
house
bank one for the starter. These seem to be in good shape. I want
to
increase my house bank and I plan to move the starter gel cell to
add
it to the house bank and buy a new starter battery.

In the interest of weight reduction my plan is to buy a smaller
starter
battery. To ensure adequate cranking capacity but lowest weight an
optima battery seems a good choice (spiralcell AGM). My alternator
regulator can support different batter types in each bank but my
shorepower xantrex charger can not. I don’t see any reason why
charging
an AGM using a gel cell profile would be a problem (although the
opposite would be) or why combining banks occasionally (both on
battery
switch) would be a problem.

Does anyone disagree?

Thanks,
Alan F-33 Hull#51 1982 SEAPR

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

In my previous boat, the shore connected charger only fed the house
bank. The alternator was the only charger for the starterbattery,
just like in a car.

michel


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Brian Guptil
<sailordude@…> wrote:

Alan

I have successfully used a small (small car size) DiHard
automotive battery
in a ³STSRTER ONLY² battery. As such, I can select the shape to
fit
available space. It is isolated from the house battery and the
the charging
system because of the different re-charge needs fore a starter
battery and a
house battery. In season, I use a portable charger to re-charge
this
battery not more then once a month. The charger I use is a three
phase, 10
Amp and it seldom needs to charge for more the 30 minutes. I have
never
needed to switch in the house batteries to assist. I have done
this when
off the grid for 6 months at a time. Of course, their is a switch
to tie
the systems together in an emergency.

Brian

On 5/22/07 6:08 AM, “Alan” <akusinitz@…> wrote:

When I purchased my F33 there were 3 group 27 gel cells. 2 in
the house
bank one for the starter. These seem to be in good shape. I want
to
increase my house bank and I plan to move the starter gel cell
to add
it to the house bank and buy a new starter battery.

In the interest of weight reduction my plan is to buy a smaller
starter
battery. To ensure adequate cranking capacity but lowest weight
an
optima battery seems a good choice (spiralcell AGM). My
alternator
regulator can support different batter types in each bank but my
shorepower xantrex charger can not. I don’t see any reason why
charging
an AGM using a gel cell profile would be a problem (although the
opposite would be) or why combining banks occasionally (both on
battery
switch) would be a problem.

Does anyone disagree?

Thanks,
Alan F-33 Hull#51 1982 SEAPR

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

Thanks. The current starter battery is exactly the same gel cell as the two that form the house bank. However it would be true that it has had lower use and different recharging both from the alternator and the shorepower charger. I didn;t realize this was an issue. So from what you say it is less then ideal to move it to the house bank. On the other hand its a cheap upgrade versus all new batteries so I may proceed until I really need to replace these in a few years. In the long term I’d like to replace them with different physical size batteries that could be placed in the middle upper portion of the bilge to lower the weight a bit (currently under the quarter berth).

Alan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachmentsis intended only for the personal and confidential use of therecipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is notthe intended recipient you are hereby notified that youhave received this document in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this messageis strictly prohibited and this message should be deleted.

----- Original Message ----From: michel.capel <michel.capel@…>To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:40:14 AMSubject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Mixing Battery types?

Alan,Batteries that were charged and discharged along different schedules in the past should better not be combined in one group. The charger will use the worst battery (highest internal resistance) as a reference for the automatic charging programme and thereby degrade the good batteries in the group quickly to the level of performance of the worst battery. Usually the starter battery is in better shape because it’s hardly used and immediately recharged after short use.Possibly, your starter battery has thin plates for high amp cranking and your house batteries have thicker plates for deeper cycling. This asks for different charging times in the different charge phases. Combining these types of batteries in one group confuses your charger and may result in less than optimal charging. I would keep your starter battery and add a second house bank if that’s possible (you then have three charge groups) If
that’s not possible, I would follow your plan and live with the idea that I’m maltreating some of the batteries. In a few years, you could replace the whole house bank into a group of identical age and type batteries.— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “Alan” <akusinitz@. …> wrote:>> When I purchased my F33 there were 3 group 27 gel cells. 2 in the house > bank one for the starter. These seem to be in good shape. I want to > increase my house bank and I plan to move the starter gel cell to add > it to the house bank and buy a new starter battery.> > In the interest of weight reduction my plan is to buy a smaller starter > battery. To ensure adequate cranking capacity but lowest weight an > optima battery seems a good choice (spiralcell AGM). My alternator >
regulator can support different batter types in each bank but my > shorepower xantrex charger can not. I don’t see any reason why charging > an AGM using a gel cell profile would be a problem (although the > opposite would be) or why combining banks occasionally (both on battery > switch) would be a problem.> > Does anyone disagree?> > Thanks,> Alan F-33 Hull#51 1982 SEAPR>

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Alan,

That’s what I would do in your current situation and maybe not
connect the new starterbattery to the shore charger, but just to the
alternator. In cars that works fine, so why not in a boat. These dry
cells have a very low rate of self-discharge, so even when the boat
is not used for a while, you should be able to crank the engine. Ans
you could make an emergency switch to use the house bank to crank
the engine.

In my F33/35 I put two big batteries (165 amphrs each) in the bilge
just aft of the centreboard case. I glassed in 4 platforms in the
bilge so the tops of the batteries would sit just below the
floorboards. Below the batteries there was still space for bilge
water to slosh around. I also had to cut the middle piece out of the
2x2 teak beam that supports the floorboards above the battery
location. I used a piece of aluminum U-beam and 4 bolts with wing
nuts to make an easily removeable floor beam inlay. They were
conventional lead/acid batteries, big and cheap. I could not very
well access them, so I was sloppy with adding water in time. Still,
these batteries were in good shape after seven years. Once they even
went under (fresh) water when I had a badly leaking stern gland.

My starter battery was located higher up under the saloon seat and
had a switch so it could double up as emergency battery for the nav
lights and VHF.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Alan Kusinitz
<akusinitz@…> wrote:

Thanks. The current starter battery is exactly the same gel cell
as the two that form the house bank. However it would be true that
it has had lower use and different recharging both from the
alternator and the shorepower charger. I didn;t realize this was an
issue. So from what you say it is less then ideal to move it to the
house bank. On the other hand its a cheap upgrade versus all new
batteries so I may proceed until I really need to replace these in a
few years. In the long term I’d like to replace them with different
physical size batteries that could be placed in the middle upper
portion of the bilge to lower the weight a bit (currently under the
quarter berth).

Alan

The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the
recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient you are hereby notified that you
have received this document in error and that any review,
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message
is strictly prohibited and this message should be deleted.

----- Original Message ----
From: michel.capel <michel.capel@…>
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:40:14 AM
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Mixing Battery types?

Alan,

Batteries that were charged and discharged along different
schedules
in the past should better not be combined in one group. The
charger
will use the worst battery (highest internal resistance) as a
reference for the automatic charging programme and thereby degrade
the good batteries in the group quickly to the level of
performance
of the worst battery. Usually the starter battery is in better
shape
because it’s hardly used and immediately recharged after short use.

Possibly, your starter battery has thin plates for high amp
cranking
and your house batteries have thicker plates for deeper cycling.
This asks for different charging times in the different charge
phases. Combining these types of batteries in one group confuses
your charger and may result in less than optimal charging.

I would keep your starter battery and add a second house bank if
that’s possible (you then have three charge groups) If that’s not
possible, I would follow your plan and live with the idea that I’m
maltreating some of the batteries. In a few years, you could
replace
the whole house bank into a group of identical age and type
batteries.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “Alan”
<akusinitz@ …>
wrote:

When I purchased my F33 there were 3 group 27 gel cells. 2 in
the
house
bank one for the starter. These seem to be in good shape. I want
to
increase my house bank and I plan to move the starter gel cell
to
add
it to the house bank and buy a new starter battery.

In the interest of weight reduction my plan is to buy a smaller
starter
battery. To ensure adequate cranking capacity but lowest weight
an
optima battery seems a good choice (spiralcell AGM). My
alternator
regulator can support different batter types in each bank but my
shorepower xantrex charger can not. I don’t see any reason why
charging
an AGM using a gel cell profile would be a problem (although the
opposite would be) or why combining banks occasionally (both on
battery
switch) would be a problem.

Does anyone disagree?

Thanks,
Alan F-33 Hull#51 1982 SEAPR

Posted by Brian Guptil (sailordude@…>)

Alan

There are two books out, one Living on 12 Volts and the other I don’t recall.
AmplePower.com, in Seattle have resolved all these issues. They have the equipment.

House batteries will have up to half of there stored charge drained before recharging
is started. As such, with an advanced regulator and larger alternator, it will take up
to 4 hours to replace the showered electricy. It should be done in three phases,
bulk fill, top-off and then float. Alternators with regulators other then 3 phase
micro-processor controlled will not fully re-fill the electrical charge that has been
used up. the batteries. If you are un-comfortable leaving the starting battery
off of the charging system, then AmplePower makes a 12V to 12V charger for just
such use.

AS I said, my starting battery is NOT tied into the charging system, nor is it connected
to anything other then the starter itself. I have used this system on three boats
And have never experienced a ‘fail to start’ due to electrical, nor have I ever cross-
Tied the starter battery system to the house system.

If you leave it on the alternator for charging, I assume you are using only one alternator,
then either you are inadequately charging the house battery or you will boil
The water out of the starting battery prematurely.


Retired electronic technician, (aircraft industry, experimental and development.)

BG