New Mainsail Advice for Freedom 25 wing mast

Boat Systems
1

Hi everyone, we just acquired a 1983 Freedom 25 with rotating mast. The mainsail is the original, 40 years old, with 6 full carbon fiber sandwich battens plus one along the foot. I’ve started enquiring at local sail lofts in Rhode Island where the boat is, and the modern design proposals are so different than the original, that it has me nervous.

Examples in proposals I’ve received:

  1. 4 battens, not 6 (not including the batten in the foot)
  2. No batten in the foot, where the original has one.
  3. Because of 4 not 6, the batten locations are not exactly at the reef points as they were before, which I really liked for reefing.
  4. May not be able to reuse the carbon fiber sandwich battens which are very robust.

Questions:

  1. I would like to hear any experiences you’ve had in Freedom 25 mainsail replacement (or from adjacent models). Did you replace in kind, matching the old design, or have you gone with something more modern, and what were the +/-?
  2. Did any of you move the old carbon fiber battens to a new sail? How did that work out?
  3. Should I be concerned with going from 7 battens to 4, and not having one on the foot, with modern materials and design?
  4. Is there anything special about the rotating mast that I should consider that would influence sail design?
  5. Any advice appreciated.

Quotes have been in the ~$2900 - 4500 range for base dacron and the next step up engineered dacron/taffetta, w/ 4 battens. I’m sure more expensive with custom /replacing in kind.

Some photos of the original mainsail are attached.

Thanks, Robert
batten view.png
sailview.png

2

First of all, I would say there is something to be said for Dacron. Our 1984 round-mast F25 still had the original Dacron sail in 2007 when we took ownership, and it is still in usable condition today. Whereas a boat I raced on with with a full suite of high-tech laminate (taffeta/dyneema) has blown through several in just a few years - and I literally mean they have ripped apart. Yes they are very strong and hold a nice shape, but they are finicky about being properly stored and don’t like UV exposure.

After our first year of ownership, we took the journey you are on, shopping around, checking this forum, etc. The loft that had made our original was no longer around. I ended up allowing myself to get persuaded that Steve Haarstick was the expert on Freedom sails, and ended up getting a Dacron main, a nylon spinnaker, and later, a dyneema laminate staysail from his loft in Rochester (which has been a Quantum loft since Steve retired). The Haarstick main was fairly similar in size and shape to the original, though loose-footed. Still five battens, but not equivalent in length or location. A nice “modern” upgrade was velcro straps to hold them in the pockets, rather than the little rope ties.

While we’ve been happy with those Haarstick sails, and Steve had some good advice (like not putting too much area up high, since the smaller Freedoms can be “tippy”), I would not go with a remote loft if there is a next time. I definitely felt like I missed having someone local who would come out to my boat, sail with me, make the measurements, come out sailing again when the sail is ready, make adjustments if needed, etc. It sounds like you might already be planning to stay local, so you may already get this.

I think I see an Ulmer label in the photo of your sail. They are UK Sails now, and they have a loft in Warwick. Have your checked with them? They just might have access to the plans that went into your original. But my guess is that is not so important. Sailmaking and sail tech has changed so much that I think I wouldn’t worry too much about fewer battens than you had before. And FWIW, neither of my mains has had a batten in the foot, and I can’t say it has seemed necessary. And if you are OK with that, then not having a batten at the reef points might not be a concern either (my mains’ battens do not line up with reef points either).

As for the battens, both of my mains have fiberglass battens. The newer ones seem like better tech. Both older and newer ones seem to have a much smaller cross-section than the ones in your photos, which look quite chunky in comparison to my eye. I’d still be inclined I think to prefer 5 vs just 4 though. That said, it’s true that the top batten in both my mains isn’t helpful in light air, as it tends to be too straight, although I’m sure I could fiddle with the batten pocket closures to fix this (ie more compression in lighter air to get more camber). So maybe there is a case for just 4, other than saving a bit of money and weight aloft.

3

I don’t have a 25, but I just replaced the main on my 21. It’s a very similar boat except no rotating wing mast (I’m jealous!).

We have a great local sail loft here in St Pete (Sail Technologies). Tom there walked me through all the decisions we made.

Unless you intend to class-race against other F25s (unlikely considering how few there are in the world) I would absolutely go with a more modern sail design. Sail design has changed a lot in the last 40 years and we are able to build much more efficient sails for the same spars. This is an unstayed rig - take advantage of it! You don’t have backstays to worry about so there’s no reason not to put a big fat-top main on the boat. We were able to get a lot more sail area by doing that. Maximizing mainsail area and shape is really important in these cat-rigged boats. Being overpowered doesn’t bother me - I just reef earlier.

A new sail design means you do need new battens or you’ll be very restricted. New battens will also allow you to use battens you can taper to get a much more efficient sail shape. The loft I used bought my old battens from me for store credit, and they will cut them up to use as partial battens. Maybe your loft would consider the same? The new battens in my sail are fiberglass Hobie battens, except for that diagonal top batten which is a carbon sandwich.

As far as changing the number of battens - my new main still has 5 and I think that works really well for me. 6 on an F25 sounds right. One of my main concerns with fewer battens is how well the sail would fall into the lazy-jacks. I definitely don’t think you need a batten along the foot.

My new main was $1800. I went with the least-expensive dacron they had because, while I do race sometimes, I mostly cruise and I have no interest in babying some fancy materials. My derigging process is to drop the sail and cover it - I don’t want to have to roll it. I think with a full-battened main, the material is not as important since you can depend on batten tension to hold the shape.

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A couple other things to consider while you’re thinking about it:

  • Cat-rigged boats are steered to the mainsail telltales, unlike most boats which are steered to the headsail. This means you want to think carefully about telltale placement and make sure they put telltale windows in. They probably should be a little farther back than the loft is used to because the mast is bigger on these boats (although that might be resolved by the wing mast). Have them sew in some leech telltales too.
  • Definitely go loose-footed. Being able to adjust the foot tension gives you so much more control over the shape of the sail.
  • Ask them to put a downhaul (cunningham) eye in. It’s easier to do it now even if you don’t have a cunningham rigged yet. I like it because I don’t have to get so much halyard tension and I can fine-tune the luff tension.
  • The enemy of single-line reefing is friction. I think the best setup might have been to have my sailmaker strap low-friction rings to the reef points instead of regular stainless grommet holes.
  • If you go with a square-top/fat-top design, your top batten won’t want to lay flat in the lazy jacks. To resolve this, we put a snap shackle on the top car instead of permanently attaching it. So before I leave the dock I just attach that top car and then things are ready to go.
  • I would avoid velcro straps for tensioning the battens. They are easy to adjust but velcro doesn’t stay sticky forever. Mine are lashed in and I really like it.
  • Go for a strapped-in ring at the head instead of a metal plate if your sailmaker will do it. It doesn’t seem like a huge difference but any weight you can save that high up is a big deal.
4

Thanks so much for your reply unfettered…

Regarding the batten in the foot: one of the sail lofts told me that the batten in the foot was probably hindering my ability to tune outhaul tension for light air - which I had experienced - so hearing you don’t have the bottom batten either makes me comfortable with removing it.

Great tip on UK Sails in Warwick. I would have never made that connection, I’ll check them out.
I had also seen all the previous posts on Steve Haarstick - but then seeing he retired I went local.

I’m of the same opinion now on the battens, giving up the one in the foot, and compromising to 5, down from the 6 in the original and up from 4 proposed. I’m also coming around to new battens and not try to reuse the chunky originals. The new battens are probably designed to work in the new sail tech system, mixing and matching may have unintended consequences.

I’m going to do more research into the taffeta/dyneema topic. That is one of the choices I have. I was leaning toward it as they are selling it on being more durable - but is it really based on your experiences? Specifically, how does North Sails 3Di stack up?

Thanks for sharing. Simply hearing someone else’s experience helps to feel comfortable in decisions being considered.

5

Thanks Ian, that’s two votes for loose footed - done. Thanks for reminding me on the telltale windows - it had completely slipped my mind and the original sail had them. I also hadn’t thought of the low friction grommets and am now asking for them. I already had the Cunningham in the quotes. As for the fat top, I’m considering it, though I will probably stick with standard shape. I agree that I wish I had more light air sail area, but then may days in Narragansett Bay we easily get over 10-12 knots on most afternoons where the boat is fully powered and it can get gusty, so I think I’d rather add temporary SA than have to remove it all the time. I’ve already bought used - but haven’t tried yet - a small code zero and a small staysail to increase reach sail area on light wind days and upwind, as some others posted on this forum some years ago. Thanks again!!

6

Hello Robert,

I totally agree with dropping the batten in the foot of the sail. IMHO I think 5 battens is the way to go. I would opt to have a bigger roach than your current sail, but I would shy away from a square top on the F25 wing mast. I saw a wing mast, with a square top mainsail, break in about 25kns of wind.

happy sailing,
Jim D.

7

Congrats on the F25! I acquired a 1982 with wing mast last year and am slowly upgrading bits here and there. The previous owner bought a Quantum main that I like a lot, but can’t testify as to the “right” number of battens. Mine had the plastic rope-in-groove track and I blew that up, so there’s a new Tides Marine track/car system waiting for launch. Local boatyard works with a Quantum loft a few miles down the road so that was an easy decision.