Purchase Questions

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1

Posted by loren beach (sailaway10@…>)

We are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38 foot range, likely
built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable in the current
crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e. either the deck
layouts are designed only for motoring or the interiors are designed
only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a very fast 34 foot
cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need designed-in comfort for
sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips of up to a week.

With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored hulls. A prominent
surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes, at this age, it
should probably be OK. Well, Probably.
The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred words trying to
convince me that the current models are “very much improved” than the
ones they sold 20 years ago does not reassure me. I know too many
sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into repairing bottom coring on
older boats, and not just from J, either.

Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms? Any that needed
re-skinning and re-coring done??

And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas off shore for
several days? I have found, over the years, that having more V to the
bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your Freedom? Much
pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat subjective…)

It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats for a long time,
and it is becoming more and more apparent that our “next boat” may have
already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure?

Thanks so much,

“Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon

2

Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)

There is simply no way to guarantee that a balsa-cored hull won’t have water problems. However, the overwhelming majority of problems – to the extent there are any – are due to what an owner did or didn’t do in the way of maintenance. I own a 1987 F30, purchased two years ago. When it was surveyed, there was no evidence of moisture in the hull. In fact, most through hulls on the F30 go through solid glass, not through a cored section.

Not only were all Freedoms built with cored hulls, but about 1,000 Nonsuchs also have cored hulls. All told, then, there are a fair number of old boats with cored hulls. I’ve seen little documented evidence of major hull issues. There seems to be considerably more angst than actual evidence of major problems. This is not to say that it can’t happen. There is an Alerion Express for sale on Yachtworld for a pittance because the hull has a 40% moisture content. No indication of how it happened, but I’d bet it was not a manufacturer error.

I’m sure I’ve said little that will ease your concerns. All I can say is that I had the same concerns before I bought my boat, but now that I have owned it for a while, I worry not at all about it.

Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio

-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of loren beachSent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:58 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Purchase QuestionsWe are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38 foot range, likely built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable in the current crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e. either the deck layouts are designed only for motoring or the interiors are designed only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a very fast 34 foot cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need designed-in comfort for sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips of up to a week.With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored hulls. A prominent surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes, at this age, it should probably be OK. Well, Probably.The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred words trying to convince me that the current models are “very much improved” than the ones they sold 20 years ago does not reassure me. I know too many sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into repairing bottom coring on older boats, and not just from J, either.Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms? Any that needed re-skinning and re-coring done??And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas off shore for several days? I have found, over the years, that having more V to the bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your Freedom? Much pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat subjective…)It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats for a long time, and it is becoming more and more apparent that our “next boat” may have already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure? Thanks so much,“Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon
=00IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisorThis email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

3

Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)

I am in the middle of replacing 4 through hulls on my '86 vintage
F36 and have replaced 2 others previously. All thru hulls have been
in cored areas and the core edge was left unsealed by the factory.
All that not withstanding, All thru hulls were bedded with 5200 (not
a currently recommended practice) and all core areas were perfectly
dry.



– In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, loren beach
<sailaway10@c…> wrote:

We are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38 foot range,
likely
built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable in the
current
crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e. either the deck
layouts are designed only for motoring or the interiors are
designed
only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a very fast 34
foot
cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need designed-in comfort
for
sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips of up to a
week.

With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored hulls. A prominent
surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes, at this age, it
should probably be OK. Well, Probably.
The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred words trying to
convince me that the current models are “very much improved” than
the
ones they sold 20 years ago does not reassure me. I know too many
sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into repairing bottom
coring on
older boats, and not just from J, either.

Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms? Any that
needed
re-skinning and re-coring done??

And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas off shore for
several days? I have found, over the years, that having more V to
the
bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your Freedom? Much
pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat subjective…)

It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats for a long
time,
and it is becoming more and more apparent that our “next boat” may
have
already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure?

Thanks so much,

“Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon

4

Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)

I should have qualified my comment about through hulls. I believe that all below the waterline through hulls on the F30 are through solid glass;above the water line they are not.

Al

-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of macks011Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 2:32 PMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Purchase QuestionsI am in the middle of replacing 4 through hulls on my '86 vintage F36 and have replaced 2 others previously. All thru hulls have been in cored areas and the core edge was left unsealed by the factory. All that not withstanding, All thru hulls were bedded with 5200 (not a currently recommended practice) and all core areas were perfectly dry.-- In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, loren beach <sailaway10@c…> wrote:>> We are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38 foot range, likely > built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable in the current > crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e. either the deck > layouts are designed only for motoring or the interiors are designed > only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a very fast 34 foot > cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need designed-in comfort for > sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips of up to a week.> > With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored hulls. A prominent > surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes, at this age, it > should probably be OK. Well, Probably.> The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred words trying to > convince me that the current models are “very much improved” than the > ones they sold 20 years ago does not reassure me. I know too many > sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into repairing bottom coring on > older boats, and not just from J, either.> > Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms? Any that needed > re-skinning and re-coring done??> > And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas off shore for > several days? I have found, over the years, that having more V to the > bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your Freedom? Much > pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat subjective…)> > It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats for a long time, > and it is becoming more and more apparent that our “next boat” may have > already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure? > > Thanks so much,> > “Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon>
=00IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisorThis email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

5

Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)

That remains to be seen. The above water thru hulls were in cored
areas. The head waste discharge was also in a cored area. The
instrument thruhulls are in the solid glass area adjacent to the
centerline. The sink drain, head intake and and engine raw water
intake have not been examined yet. Regardless, as you implied, a well
cared for hull should not pose any problems.

If you are familiar with Ferenc Mate’s “The World Best SailBoats”,
Freedom made the list in large part due to Mate’s admiration for
Everett Pearson’s knowledge of fiberglass and composite
construction.



— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Lorman, Alvin J.”
<ajlorman@y…> wrote:

I should have qualified my comment about through hulls. I believe
that
all below the waterline through hulls on the F30 are through solid
glass;above the water line they are not.

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of macks011
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 2:32 PM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Purchase Questions

I am in the middle of replacing 4 through hulls on my '86 vintage
F36 and have replaced 2 others previously. All thru hulls have
been
in cored areas and the core edge was left unsealed by the factory.
All that not withstanding, All thru hulls were bedded with 5200
(not
a currently recommended practice) and all core areas were
perfectly
dry.

– In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, loren beach
<sailaway10@c…> wrote:

We are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38 foot range,
likely
built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable in the
current
crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e. either the deck
layouts are designed only for motoring or the interiors are
designed
only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a very fast
34
foot
cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need designed-in comfort
for
sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips of up to a
week.

With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored hulls. A
prominent
surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes, at this age,
it
should probably be OK. Well, Probably.
The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred words trying
to
convince me that the current models are “very much improved”
than
the
ones they sold 20 years ago does not reassure me. I know too
many
sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into repairing bottom
coring on
older boats, and not just from J, either.

Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms? Any that
needed
re-skinning and re-coring done??

And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas off shore for
several days? I have found, over the years, that having more V
to
the
bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your Freedom?
Much
pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat subjective…)

It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats for a long
time,
and it is becoming more and more apparent that our “next boat”
may
have
already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure?

Thanks so much,

“Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon

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IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax
matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer,
Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer
for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under
U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in
promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity,
investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice
was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other
than Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter,
and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers
particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor

This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you have received this email in error please notify the system
manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

6

Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Every Nonsuch 30 that our yc commodore had surveyed came out with a waterlogged core ! Finally he purcased a smaller Nonsuch as they are solid glass. Andre.“Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@…> wrote: There is simply no way to guarantee that a balsa-cored hull won’t have water problems. However, the overwhelming majority of problems – to the extent there are any – are due to what an owner did or didn’t do in the way of maintenance. I own a 1987 F30, purchased two years ago. When it was surveyed, there was no evidence of moisture in the hull. In fact, most through hulls on the F30 go through solid glass, not through a cored
section. Not only were all Freedoms built with cored hulls, but about 1,000 Nonsuchs also have cored hulls. All told, then, there are a fair number of old boats with cored hulls. I’ve seen little documented evidence of major hull issues. There seems to be considerably more angst than actual evidence of major problems. This is not to say that it can’t happen. There is an Alerion Express for sale on Yachtworld for a pittance because the hull has a 40% moisture content. No indication of how it happened, but I’d bet it was not a manufacturer error. I’m sure I’ve
said little that will ease your concerns. All I can say is that I had the same concerns before I bought my boat, but now that I have owned it for a while, I worry not at all about it. Al Lorman F30 Ab Initio -----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of loren
beachSent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:58 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Purchase QuestionsWe are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38 foot range, likely built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable in the current crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e. either the deck layouts are designed only for motoring or the interiors are designed only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a very fast 34 foot cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need designed-in comfort for sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips of up to a week.With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored hulls. A prominent surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes, at this age, it should probably be OK. Well, Probably.The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred words trying to convince me that the current models are
“very much improved” than the ones they sold 20 years ago does not reassure me. I know too many sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into repairing bottom coring on older boats, and not just from J, either.Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms? Any that needed re-skinning and re-coring done??And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas off shore for several days? I have found, over the years, that having more V to the bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your Freedom? Much pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat subjective…)It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats for a long time, and it is becoming more and more apparent that our “next boat” may have already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure? Thanks so much,“Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon=00 IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances
from an independent tax advisor This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos

7

Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)

The Nonsuch 26 is also cored.

-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andre lavioletteSent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:49 PMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [freedomyachts2003] Purchase Questions
Every Nonsuch 30 that our yc commodore had surveyed came out with a waterlogged core ! Finally he purcased a smaller Nonsuch as they are solid glass.

Andre.“Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@…> wrote:

There is simply no way to guarantee that a balsa-cored hull won’t have water problems. However, the overwhelming majority of problems – to the extent there are any – are due to what an owner did or didn’t do in the way of maintenance. I own a 1987 F30, purchased two years ago. When it was surveyed, there was no evidence of moisture in the hull. In fact, most through hulls on the F30 go through solid glass, not through ! a cored section.

Not only were all Freedoms built with cored hulls, but about 1,000 Nonsuchs also have cored hulls. All told, then, there are a fair number of old boats with cored hulls. I’ve seen little documented evidence of major hull issues. There seems to be considerably more angst than actual evidence of major problems. This is not to say that it can’t happen. There is an Alerion Express for sale on Yachtworld for a pittance because the hull has a 40% moisture content. No indication of how it happened, but I’d bet it was not a manufacturer error.

I’m sure! I’ve said little that will ease your concerns. All I can say is that I had the same concerns before I bought my boat, but now that I have owned it for a while, I worry not at all about it.

Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio

-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of loren beachSent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:58 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Purchase QuestionsWe are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38 foot range, likely built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable in the current crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e. either the deck layouts are designed only for motoring or the interiors are designed only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a very fast 34 foot cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need designed-in comfort for sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips of up to a week.With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored hulls. A prominent surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes, at this age, it should probably be OK. Well, Probably.The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred words trying to convince me that the current mode! ls are “very much improved” than the ones they sold 20 years ago does not reassure me. I know too many sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into repairing bottom coring on older boats, and not just from J, either.Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms? Any that needed re-skinning and re-coring done??And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas off shore for several days? I have found, over the years, that having more V to the bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your Freedom? Much pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat subjective…)It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats for a long time, and it is becoming more and more apparent that our “next boat” may have already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure? Thanks so much,“Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon=00

IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed ! above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor

This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.



Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos =00IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisorThis email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

8

Posted by Peter Schäfer (petersch@…>)

I am not shure if a wet core can not be detected by infrared photography. At least one surveyor in Florida advertises this service
(http://www.floridasurveyors.com). Is there anybody on the board who has experience with infrared inspection? As I am looking
for a used Freedom myself, any comments will be welcome.

Greetings,
Peter

“Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@…> wrote:

There is simply no way to guarantee that a balsa-cored hull won’t have water problems…

9

Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)

Peter:

Moisture in a hull or deck can be located quite readily by a moisture meter or simply by sounding the hull with a plastic mallet.

Al

-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter SchäferSent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 8:46 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Purchase QuestionsI am not shure if a wet core can not be detected by infrared photography. At least one surveyor in Florida advertises this service(http://www.floridasurveyors.com). Is there anybody on the board who has experience with infrared inspection? As I am looking for a used Freedom myself, any comments will be welcome.Greetings,Peter"Lorman, Alvin J." <ajlorman@…> wrote:
There is simply no way to guarantee that a balsa-cored hull won’t have water problems…
=00IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisorThis email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

10

Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Commodore bought a 22. Andre.“Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@…> wrote: The Nonsuch 26 is also cored. -----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andre lavioletteSent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:49 PMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [freedomyachts2003] Purchase Questions Every Nonsuch 30 that our yc commodore had surveyed came out with
a waterlogged core ! Finally he purcased a smaller Nonsuch as they are solid glass. Andre.“Lorman, Alvin J.” <ajlorman@…> wrote: There is simply no way to guarantee that a balsa-cored hull won’t have water problems. However, the overwhelming majority of problems – to the extent there are any – are due to what an owner did or didn’t do in the way of maintenance. I own a 1987 F30, purchased two years ago. When it was surveyed, there was no evidence of moisture in the hull. In fact, most through hulls on the F30 go through solid glass, not through ! a cored section. Not only were all Freedoms built with cored hulls, but about 1,000 Nonsuchs also have cored hulls. All told, then, there are a fair number of old boats with cored hulls. I’ve seen little documented evidence of major hull issues. There seems to be considerably more angst than actual evidence of major problems. This is not to say that it can’t happen. There is an Alerion Express for sale on Yachtworld for a pittance because the hull has a 40% moisture content. No indication of how it happened, but I’d bet it was not a manufacturer error. I’m sure! I’ve said little that will ease your
concerns. All I can say is that I had the same concerns before I bought my boat, but now that I have owned it for a while, I worry not at all about it. Al Lorman F30 Ab Initio -----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of loren beachSent: Saturday, January 14, 2006
10:58 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Purchase QuestionsWe are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38 foot range, likely built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable in the current crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e. either the deck layouts are designed only for motoring or the interiors are designed only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a very fast 34 foot cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need designed-in comfort for sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips of up to a week.With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored hulls. A prominent surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes, at this age, it should probably be OK. Well, Probably.The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred words trying to convince me that the current mode! ls are “very much improved” than the ones they sold
20 years ago does not reassure me. I know too many sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into repairing bottom coring on older boats, and not just from J, either.Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms? Any that needed re-skinning and re-coring done??And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas off shore for several days? I have found, over the years, that having more V to the bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your Freedom? Much pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat subjective…)It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats for a long time, and it is becoming more and more apparent that our “next boat” may have already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure? Thanks so much,“Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon=00 IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed ! above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended
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Posted by Jacqui MacConnell (jacimacc@…>)

Loren and family: I purchased a 1986 Freedom in
Seattle in Fall of 2004. I had similar concerns, and
had been looking at Freedoms for ten years before
buying. My favorite alternate marque is older Wm.
Lapworth Cals. Not the creature comforts of a Freedom,
but - on your theme - great boats are not necessarily
fresh off a yard line. We raced Cals a bit. We met and
enjoyed the company of some real Cal 40 contenders who
still do.

It may be of interest to you to learn that the Freedom
38 is literally a Freedom 36 with a two foot swim
step, or “sugar scoop” extension. Occasionally in a
listing, or an owner’s description, you’ll see F 36+2,
or the classification of the whole group as F 36/38.
It was my good fortune to come upon one of these. So
as you look at Freedom 38’s, be sure to also review
the 36 listings. The yard, TPI in Rhode Island, used
to make the extension kit available. Unsure about that
now.

As a Cal fan, I was also concerned about cored hull
below water line issues. Some few Freedoms
have had difficulties, but I am almost sure it was not
due to original design or construction. Rather: bad
owner decisions, or acts of nature. If played with
nicely, these serve.

I would offer you a couple resources. In seatlle, in
the Shilshole area, is an excellent surveyor who is
also an Etchell racer. His name is Jerry Edwards. He
is with Reisner, Edwards, et al. When Freedom still
had a national distributorship chain, Jerry was a
Seattle West Coast dealer. He had various trips and
trainings back to RI, to the mother company.

It was my amazing complete chance that he was the only
surveyor who was available quickly when I needed one
two years ago. He’d had a cancellation, or something.
Talk about some one who literally knew these fine
strange animals inside and out!

Sparrow (then Nereid) passed with flying colors.
Including moistureometer tests. It was a brisk and
sunny Fall day. He looked out just past the breakwater
at light chop. He looked at me, and the buyer and
seller’s brokers. And said with a grin," want to go
out? I can show you what she’ll do." We did.
Especially nice for me because so many buyers were
lined up behind he me to buy Nereid, should I falter,
that I’d waived any sea trial. I had only sailed a
great F 32 up in Juneau, years before.

The first time we tacked, my excellent broker Leslie
Senn ran forward. And then called back.
“Where are the sheets going? There’s nothing to bring
in.” “That’s right,” said Jerry, “just come back here
and sit in the cockpit.” The other lazy young racing
broker (no names mentioned and not now in the
brokerage business) watched a couple more manuevers,
and decided he might need to buy a Freedom. Though
this was his listing, he hadn’t trialed the boat. So
big, so comfy.
He’d assumed it wouldn’t perform. Not like the Santa
Cruz 51 he crewed. Why bother?

Jerry next set the Autohelm on lock down, took his
hands off the wheel, and we pirouetted nicely in
obedient perfect circles under sail, doing no hands no
engine, man overboards. I never got a chance that day
to play with my own boat. Think Christmas train set
syndrome here. It wasn’t until after we sailed away
from Shilshole a month later as brand new owners, that
I got to sail an F 36/38. I have never sailed anything
I liked better. I LOVE this boat.

We race. Just the Wednesday night club stuff. I was
worried the hotshot crew I attracted might be bored.
Too little to tweak. Not so. And one of our crew was
in Olympiad training earlier in his life.
She’s a beauty, and do we have fun. By the way, we
also win, if there are winds above 10 knots. I
believe, but am not the best person to talk to about
this, that the hull is somewhat flattened or
“planing” in cross section characteristic. So that may
be a non-fit for you regarding the possible pounding
you mentioned. I do know several of these have
circumnavigated, and there has been one book written
by an owner who did that. Others may know it’s title.

Please phone Jerry Edwards at Reisner, McKuen, Edwards
surveyors. Tell him Jacqui’s still in love with the
boat she bought without sailing it. And thanks again!
And please also consider coming up here any time as
my guest and sailing away for awhile. See for
yourselves. She’s heavily insured, very tractable, and
you can get out of sight of land if you like. I know
she’s good for it.

Kindest regards in your search,
Jacqui MacConnell, Bellingham, WA State 360 671-3434
AKA Captain Jac, SPARROW







— loren beach <sailaway10@…> wrote:

We are looking to maybe purchase a Freedom in the 38
foot range, likely
built in the early 90’s. There is nothing affordable
in the current
crop of new sailing RV’s that interests us. i.e.
either the deck
layouts are designed only for motoring or the
interiors are designed
only for “gracious dockside living.” We have owned a
very fast 34 foot
cruiser/racer for almost ten years. We need
designed-in comfort for
sleeping, cooking, and navigating for offshore trips
of up to a week.

With Freedom, the big worry is the balsa cored
hulls. A prominent
surveyor that we know sez that if the hull passes,
at this age, it
should probably be OK. Well, Probably.
The fact that the J dealers spend so many hundred
words trying to
convince me that the current models are “very much
improved” than the
ones they sold 20 years ago does not reassure me. I
know too many
sailors that have had to put 20 to 30K into
repairing bottom coring on
older boats, and not just from J, either.

Anyone with long term experience with the Freedoms?
Any that needed
re-skinning and re-coring done??

And, of course, how is the motion in six foot seas
off shore for
several days? I have found, over the years, that
having more V to the
bow sections helps – how is the hull shape on your
Freedom? Much
pounding? (Yeah, I know – it’s somewhat
subjective…)

It’s just that we have been looking at bigger boats
for a long time,
and it is becoming more and more apparent that our
“next boat” may have
already been built – about 20 years ago! Go figure?

Thanks so much,

“Four-Foot-itis” in Portland, Oregon


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