Re: F 30 fixed ports (and maye F36 and F28 too)

David_G_Evans · January 10, 2005, 1:14am

Posted by David G. Evans (dgevans@…>)

Mike,
Very interesting; I think the most I’ve read about these @*%#$ ports in years. So the lens is just bedded in the frame from the outside and the frame also. And the inside frame just covers the gap around the real frame. Even with your correction, it’s not clear where the silicone goes. If the lens is bedded using the goop tape, then the silicone it seems to me would be used to fill in the exterior gap.
Further from your info is that the hidden leaks are going to be around the frame itself, Do you know that they were bedded in 5200? If so, the frames will not come out in any nice shape, although I’ve heard of some stuff that can soften 5200. But your point is well taken about how the s/s screws will be in the aluminum frames. And also the idea of routing a gap around the frame to reseal around the edges if you don’t take them out.
Can you tell more about dealing with the interior woodwork? Did you refinish or veneer over the teak?
Thx,
dge

----- Original Message -----
From: seychellois_lib
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:55 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] F 30 fixed ports (and maye F36 too)
When I bought my F30 back in 99 I was unhappy with the look of theports, specifically the raggedy waterproofing grout that was squeezingout from between the port frame and the glass on the exterior side.I don’t know the technical term for this grout but I’m pretty sure itwas OEM (at least it was for my hull #3). You run across itocassionally in hardware stores. It comes in a roll that looks like athick roll of tape. The stuff is about 1/2 inch wide and perhaps a1/16 th thick. Freedom used a black color. It is not cured, itmaintains a kind of very thick, greasy consitency througout its life.This apparently accounts for fact that it squeezes out over time andbegins to take on that rageddy look I mentioned. I believe they usethe same stuff in cars for waterprofing/soundproofing/vibrationcontrol. It seems to be a damn fine waterproofing material though.Now, having said all of the above, I made the mistake of deciding to"fix" the raggedy look by removing a lens and re-doing it withdifferent materials so it would look cleaner. You’ll note the singular"a lens"This is how I discovered the deep, dark secrets of Freedom 30 hull #3’s fixed port installation. I assume Freedom did ports the same wayfor hull #'s beyond mine so the following information may be useful tosome of you and is also a cautionary tale.The construction is as follows (forgive minor digressions):Deck mold is cut to make hole for fixed port installation. I do notknow if Freedom sealed the balsa core against water intrusion aroundthe periphery of this cut, I’ve heard conflicting reports. Since Inever removed the frame I don’t know for sure. Fixing wet rottingfestering balsa core is another story (yep, I’ve got one).The port frame was installed into the cut hole and sealed with (Iassume) 3M 5200. This is the only area I have actually had a leaksince I’ve owned the boat. A gap formed between the hull and the frame- not the lens and the frame. This is potentially a nasty leakespecially if the aforementioned balsa core is not sealed. Who knows?This leak also resulted in discoloration of interior teak and a littleteak plywood rotting (never actually got any dripping into the boat,all water was sucked up by interior woodwork). I had to fix the rotbut that’s another long story. This leak, by the way, was fixed bycleaning out a very narrow gap between frame and hull on exterior sideand filling with marine silicone.OK, so we have an open frame bedded into the hull. Now the interestingpart. The interior of the frame against which the lens is mounted issimply a slightly curved bed. There are no screw holes or anythingelse on this surface (its about an inch wide). The lens is directlysealed to this bed with TWO components. The exterior component -exposed to the elements - and the real waterproof seal - is the greasygasket material I mentioned earlier. This stuff is laid right roundthe outside exterior lip of the lens and seals to the outside lib ofthe bed. You actually need this to “stick” the lense to the framewhile you apply the second component which is copious amounts of blackmarine silicone. The silcioone fills the INTERIOR lens to frame gapcreated by the gasket material. The lens is still not supported byanything except the sticktion of the greasy gasket material and theuncured silicone. You DO NOT want this crap to fall back into yourboat so you put some duck tape up just in case. I found the greasygasket is pretty sticky so I had no problem.After the silicone cures you have (hopefully) a sealed fixed portlens. Next step is to get the interior frame installed. I mentionedthe the lens is stuck directly to the rounded bed, no screw holes. Thescrew holes for the interior frame are located on a flange thatextends out from the lense bed and is recessed 1/2 inch so that theinterior fame covers all the ugly silicone and only exposes about 1/4inch of lens.The frame installation is fairly straightforward, you just screw inthe 20 or so SS machine screws and you finsihed.So what’s the big deal? A couple of items:The machine screws holding the interior frames in are often corrodedand very very difficult to remove. You can imagine, SS screws inaluminum frame for 15 years exposed to moisture and whatnot. Justgetting the interior frames off can be a project. Once you get into ityou know you won’t be able to stop so prepare you Wife (or hubby) fora month of abstenence.Getting the old greasy gasget goop off the lens is an icky mess. Ifyour buying new lenses no big deal, you can take the old ones and makefun of them before you SHITCAN them ha ha ha so “there take that damnold scrached lenses”.Putting the new greasy gasket goop on the new lenses is an icky mess.Installing half a construction tube of black silicone above your headis an icky mess.And finally, leak checking though easy, could reveal a leak that willbreak your heart. Believe me, I’ve been there. Talk about posttraumatic stress syndrome. Just pretend you didn’t see it and go home.Be happy to try to answer any questions, some of you undoubtedly havea better way…I hope so.MikeJacquelineF30 #3

seychellois_lib · January 10, 2005, 4:41am

Posted by seychellois_lib (seychellois_lib@…>)

Dave,

Its bloody difficult to explain (versus show) how the things are
assembled. It didn’t help that I posted it incorrectly first time around.

The gasket material is the outermost layer and is the stuff that’s
exposed to weather. Because the material is not wide enough to cover
the entire aluminum mounting base, there is a gap on the ineterior
between the lens and the base that must be filled. This is where the
silicone is used.

When I went after the rot I thought that I would have to cut a new
piece of teak laminated plywood to replace the discolored area around
the forward interier area of port about 1/2 square foot total area. I
was lucky in that the real rot did not extend beyond the interior
frame. I was able to cut the rot out and fill the resulting void with
West epoxy. I then dried and sanded the remaining discolored area to
determine if I could salvage the wood that was visible before I tore
that out too. I was successful. After a good sanding, taking care not
to sand through the veneer, I was able to get through most of the
discoloration. I then revarnished and the result was pretty darn good.
To the expert eye there’s still a bit of discoloration but you really
have to be looking for it. The water also damaged the headliner glued
under the deck in that area (aft portside port) just in front of the
louvered door. I pulled all that out and replaced with new headliner
material I bought from FYI. Looks great and has been good for a couple
years now.

PS I’ve found that gooping the Beckson gaskets regularly (about every
three months) with vasoline is an absolutely teriffic way to keep them
pliable and leak free. I’ve started the same routine on the Bomar
hatches to see of I get the same results. Gooping means a thin
coating so that your finger just slides freely over the gasket
surface. Its amazing how well this works.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “David G. Evans”
<dgevans@e…> wrote:

Mike,
Very interesting; I think the most I’ve read about these @*%#$ ports
in years. So the lens is just bedded in the frame from the outside and
the frame also. And the inside frame just covers the gap around the
real frame. Even with your correction, it’s not clear where the
silicone goes. If the lens is bedded using the goop tape, then the
silicone it seems to me would be used to fill in the exterior gap.
Further from your info is that the hidden leaks are going to be
around the frame itself, Do you know that they were bedded in 5200? If
so, the frames will not come out in any nice shape, although I’ve
heard of some stuff that can soften 5200. But your point is well taken
about how the s/s screws will be in the aluminum frames. And also the
idea of routing a gap around the frame to reseal around the edges if
you don’t take them out.
Can you tell more about dealing with the interior woodwork? Did you
refinish or veneer over the teak?
Thx,
dge

----- Original Message -----
From: seychellois_lib
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:55 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] F 30 fixed ports (and maye F36 too)

When I bought my F30 back in 99 I was unhappy with the look of the
ports, specifically the raggedy waterproofing grout that was squeezing
out from between the port frame and the glass on the exterior side.

I don’t know the technical term for this grout but I’m pretty sure it
was OEM (at least it was for my hull #3). You run across it
ocassionally in hardware stores. It comes in a roll that looks like a
thick roll of tape. The stuff is about 1/2 inch wide and perhaps a
1/16 th thick. Freedom used a black color. It is not cured, it
maintains a kind of very thick, greasy consitency througout its life.
This apparently accounts for fact that it squeezes out over time and
begins to take on that rageddy look I mentioned. I believe they use
the same stuff in cars for waterprofing/soundproofing/vibration
control. It seems to be a damn fine waterproofing material though.

Now, having said all of the above, I made the mistake of deciding to
“fix” the raggedy look by removing a lens and re-doing it with
different materials so it would look cleaner. You’ll note the singular
“a lens”

This is how I discovered the deep, dark secrets of Freedom 30 hull #
3’s fixed port installation. I assume Freedom did ports the same way
for hull #'s beyond mine so the following information may be useful to
some of you and is also a cautionary tale.

The construction is as follows (forgive minor digressions):

Deck mold is cut to make hole for fixed port installation. I do not
know if Freedom sealed the balsa core against water intrusion around
the periphery of this cut, I’ve heard conflicting reports. Since I
never removed the frame I don’t know for sure. Fixing wet rotting
festering balsa core is another story (yep, I’ve got one).

The port frame was installed into the cut hole and sealed with (I
assume) 3M 5200. This is the only area I have actually had a leak
since I’ve owned the boat. A gap formed between the hull and the frame

not the lens and the frame. This is potentially a nasty leak
especially if the aforementioned balsa core is not sealed. Who knows?
This leak also resulted in discoloration of interior teak and a little
teak plywood rotting (never actually got any dripping into the boat,
all water was sucked up by interior woodwork). I had to fix the rot
but that’s another long story. This leak, by the way, was fixed by
cleaning out a very narrow gap between frame and hull on exterior side
and filling with marine silicone.

OK, so we have an open frame bedded into the hull. Now the interesting
part. The interior of the frame against which the lens is mounted is
simply a slightly curved bed. There are no screw holes or anything
else on this surface (its about an inch wide). The lens is directly
sealed to this bed with TWO components. The exterior component -
exposed to the elements - and the real waterproof seal - is the greasy
gasket material I mentioned earlier. This stuff is laid right round
the outside exterior lip of the lens and seals to the outside lib of
the bed. You actually need this to “stick” the lense to the frame
while you apply the second component which is copious amounts of black
marine silicone. The silcioone fills the INTERIOR lens to frame gap
created by the gasket material. The lens is still not supported by
anything except the sticktion of the greasy gasket material and the
uncured silicone. You DO NOT want this crap to fall back into your
boat so you put some duck tape up just in case. I found the greasy
gasket is pretty sticky so I had no problem.

After the silicone cures you have (hopefully) a sealed fixed port
lens. Next step is to get the interior frame installed. I mentioned
the the lens is stuck directly to the rounded bed, no screw holes. The
screw holes for the interior frame are located on a flange that
extends out from the lense bed and is recessed 1/2 inch so that the
interior fame covers all the ugly silicone and only exposes about 1/4
inch of lens.

The frame installation is fairly straightforward, you just screw in
the 20 or so SS machine screws and you finsihed.

So what’s the big deal? A couple of items:

The machine screws holding the interior frames in are often corroded
and very very difficult to remove. You can imagine, SS screws in
aluminum frame for 15 years exposed to moisture and whatnot. Just
getting the interior frames off can be a project. Once you get into it
you know you won’t be able to stop so prepare you Wife (or hubby) for
a month of abstenence.

Getting the old greasy gasget goop off the lens is an icky mess. If
your buying new lenses no big deal, you can take the old ones and make
fun of them before you SHITCAN them ha ha ha so “there take that damn
old scrached lenses”.

Putting the new greasy gasket goop on the new lenses is an icky mess.

Installing half a construction tube of black silicone above your head
is an icky mess.

And finally, leak checking though easy, could reveal a leak that will
break your heart. Believe me, I’ve been there. Talk about post
traumatic stress syndrome. Just pretend you didn’t see it and go home.

Be happy to try to answer any questions, some of you undoubtedly have
a better way…I hope so.

Mike
Jacqueline
F30 #3

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