RE: Kiwi 3 blade feathering prop, an F30 experience

Posted by Fargo Rousseau (fargo_r@…>)
A replay of an older post of mine about our Kiwi experience on our F30…which is now in the able hands of Rick and Jayne in Oriental, NC:I have two inquires about the Kiwi Prop…so let me answer them
together. But before covering our experience, let me answer your first
question. Kiwi does have two sizes…but trims both of them to fit the
engine, gearbox, hull requirements. You should have more than 1 1/2
inches of clearance between the prop tip and the hull. The drawings on
their website should help you make a good judgment about the fit and
the owner of the company has a lot of experience matching his prop to
many boats.We replace the stock 2 blade fixed prop (14x14) with
a Kiwi 3 blade just before leaving on our four thousand mile round trip
south from Connecticut. I was looking for best possible normal motoring fuel efficiency,
good thrust against wind and sea, plus low sailing drag…all at the
lowest possible cost (including installation). Hoped for easy pitch
adjustment and simple service.
We would probably have to repeat the trip with three or four different
props to say which one was the best overall prop, but we loved almost
everything about the Kiwi…almost but not everything. Here is what
we learned on our Freedom 30 with the stock, original Yanmar 2GM20F
with a 2.62:1 gearbox and a 16 inch Kiwi. 1. Normal motoring efficiency was excellent. We averaged about 14 statue miles per gallon
in the Waterway under a mix of conditions. (typically 2650 rpm and 5.3
knots…a bit slow, yes…but we felt terrible about using fuel to
move a sailboat and were trying to minimize fuel use…and still make 60
to 70 statue miles a day. 2. We always felt confident that
we could motor against a head-sea and headwind and often did. Against a
12 to 15 knot wind in open water, speed sagged only about 1 to 1.5
knots from normal cruise. We could turn unwind into 25 knots or more to
reef or furl with confidence and power.
3.We always loved the sailing performance of the boat and felt that the
Kiwi was doing a good job for us…but never really raced her against
other F30s to prove she was faster because of the prop. 4. We could back anywhere we wanted to…after I learned to get up a little way before expecting directional control.
5. Fine tuning the pitch is extremely simple, although a little bit
makes a big big difference (half turn of the allen head bolt equals
about 300 rpm…or so). 6. Plastic blades hold antifouling paint amazingly well (Pettit VIVID).
7. John, at the factory, is an outstanding fellow…always honest,
helpful, prompt, knowledgeable (I think he designed the blade). You
will have a supportive friend there for life if you buy this prop. Also learned: 1. Kiwi prop sings an
initially disturbing song in the 1700 to 2200 rpm on the tach (which we
would never have used anyway). This tuneful harmonic dies in the
normal and most efficient prop rpm around 1000 to 1100, 2600 to 2850
engine rpm. I may have contributed to this problem by the addition of
paint to the blades??? 2. The Kiwi doesn’t like floating or submerged branches. Leading edge,
which is very sharp, dents and deforms from striking floating debris.
After our trip I sanded out everything and the prop performed well
after my “repair” (as directed by the factory). Would question choice
of this prop if living in an area with a lot of floating debris. 3. Long distance
motoring in muddy conditions increases the need to lubricate the blade
shaft. I did not understand why our prop blades where getting stiff on
their shafts when I arrived in Florida. I thought it was caused by
fouling at the hub. But it turns out that fine dirt particles get
packed up inside the shaft area of the blade…and “tighten up” the
clearance between the plastic blade and the metal shaft that supports
the blade and acts as the pivot. A grease hole is provided on each
blade to push this contamination out…but I did not lube the blades
often enough. However, prop removal and blade removal is very easy to
do (very different from most other feathering props). When cleaned,
everything returned to normal, as new performance after thousands of
miles of motoring.
4. Keep the hub (big ball) clean with a scrubber pad so that swinging
blades don’t hang up on barnacles. Keep blades painted with a good,
hardish bottom paint and don’t scrub it off…just wipe…at least that was our experience with VIVID. Nuff said… Hope this helps. Good sailing…and motoring,Fargo— On Tue, 11/25/08, Fred Molden <fmolden@…> wrote:From: Fred Molden <fmolden@…>Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Kiwi 3 blade feathering propTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 11:36 AM



Hello Doug, I installed a Kiwi three blade feathering
prop on my F35 in place of the bronze 2 blade folding prop. I find it
will drive the boat at 5.5kts at 2500 rpm even into heavier wind and seas (such
as one might see on the Chesapeake). At high rpm the top end is the
same and at low rpm the low speed is much faster. Reverse is much better
than the two blade and I will come out of the slip at an idle. It will
also stop the boat within about two boat lengths from 6kts. The only
small issue has been some dings on the leading edge from hitting things but
these were fixed with a little bit of filing and if I wanted I could install a new
single blade for about $100. I use Propspeed as the anti fouling paint
very successfully. The prop vibration has also decreased significantly making
the boat much quieter under power. On a go slow day (most of the time) I
run at 2000 rpm and the engine is barely audible and I can talk with people in
the cabin while I am at the helm, and still make 4.5 - 5 kts. I did the
ICW once and spent a lot of time at 2800-3000 rpm just to make distance, I am
looking to do it again at 2500-2700 rpm and actually make the same or better
time. I haven¢t noticed much difference in sailing performance over
the folding prop. Wow, just as a disclaimer, I do not have
any connection to Kiwi. Fred



From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FreedomOwne rsGroup@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of douglas.domurat
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008
8:45 AM
To:
FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Kiwi
3 blade feathering prop



Hi,

Perhaps this has been discussed before but I may have missed it. Has
anyone installed a Kiwi feathering 3 blade prop on an F30? or F?
whatever? I read good things on the internet as in excellent sailing
performance due to less drag and better reverse control, etc. But I
also hear top speed is sacrificed slightly for maybe better mototring
in a chop. Blah blah blah. This is all compared to a fixed 2 blade.
Any experience out there?

Thanks,

Doug

\

Posted by douglas.domurat (douglas.domurat@…>)

Hi Fargo, (and Bob and Fred),

Thanks for sharing your experience. It appears that the overall view
is rather positive. Do you have the spec from Kiwi other than the
16inch size? They quoted 16 inch by 20 degrees. I’m actually looking
at both motoring performance as well as sailing improvement. Seems
like a reasonable investment. Thanks to everyone. IF I go ahead and
buy the Kiwi I’ll report my experience as well.

Cheers,

Doug


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Fargo Rousseau
<fargo_r@…> wrote:

A replay of an older post of mine about our Kiwi experience on our
F30…which is now in the able hands of Rick and Jayne in Oriental,
NC:

I have two inquires about the Kiwi Prop…so let me answer them
together. But before covering our experience, let me answer your
first
question. Kiwi does have two sizes…but trims both of them to fit
the
engine, gearbox, hull requirements. You should have more than 1
1/2
inches of clearance between the prop tip and the hull. The
drawings on
their website should help you make a good judgment about the fit
and
the owner of the company has a lot of experience matching his prop
to
many boats.

We replace the stock 2 blade fixed prop (14x14) with
a Kiwi 3 blade just before leaving on our four thousand mile round
trip
south from Connecticut. I was looking for best possible normal
motoring fuel efficiency,

good thrust against wind and sea, plus low sailing drag…all at
the
lowest possible cost (including installation). Hoped for easy
pitch
adjustment and simple service.

We would probably have to repeat the trip with three or four
different
props to say which one was the best overall prop, but we loved
almost
everything about the Kiwi…almost but not everything. Here is
what
we learned on our Freedom 30 with the stock, original Yanmar 2GM20F
with a 2.62:1 gearbox and a 16 inch Kiwi.

  1. Normal motoring efficiency was excellent. We averaged about
    14 statue miles per gallon
    in the Waterway under a mix of conditions. (typically 2650 rpm and
    5.3
    knots…a bit slow, yes…but we felt terrible about using fuel to
    move a sailboat and were trying to minimize fuel use…and still
    make 60
    to 70 statue miles a day.

  2. We always felt confident that
    we could motor against a head-sea and headwind and often did.
    Against a
    12 to 15 knot wind in open water, speed sagged only about 1 to 1.5
    knots from normal cruise. We could turn unwind into 25 knots or
    more to
    reef or furl with confidence and power.

3.We always loved the sailing performance of the boat and felt
that the
Kiwi was doing a good job for us…but never really raced her
against
other F30s to prove she was faster because of the prop.

  1. We could back anywhere we wanted to…after I learned to
    get up a little way before expecting directional control.

  2. Fine tuning the pitch is extremely simple, although a little bit
    makes a big big difference (half turn of the allen head bolt equals
    about 300 rpm…or so).

  3. Plastic blades hold antifouling paint amazingly well (Pettit
    VIVID).

  4. John, at the factory, is an outstanding fellow…always honest,
    helpful, prompt, knowledgeable (I think he designed the blade).
    You
    will have a supportive friend there for life if you buy this prop.

Also learned:

  1. Kiwi prop sings an
    initially disturbing song in the 1700 to 2200 rpm on the tach
    (which we
    would never have used anyway). This tuneful harmonic dies in the
    normal and most efficient prop rpm around 1000 to 1100, 2600 to
    2850
    engine rpm. I may have contributed to this problem by the addition
    of
    paint to the blades???

  2. The Kiwi doesn’t like floating or submerged branches.
    Leading edge,
    which is very sharp, dents and deforms from striking floating
    debris.
    After our trip I sanded out everything and the prop performed well
    after my “repair” (as directed by the factory). Would question
    choice
    of this prop if living in an area with a lot of floating debris.

  3. Long distance
    motoring in muddy conditions increases the need to lubricate the
    blade
    shaft. I did not understand why our prop blades where getting
    stiff on
    their shafts when I arrived in Florida. I thought it was caused by
    fouling at the hub. But it turns out that fine dirt particles get
    packed up inside the shaft area of the blade…and “tighten up”
    the
    clearance between the plastic blade and the metal shaft that
    supports
    the blade and acts as the pivot. A grease hole is provided on each
    blade to push this contamination out…but I did not lube the
    blades
    often enough. However, prop removal and blade removal is very
    easy to
    do (very different from most other feathering props). When cleaned,
    everything returned to normal, as new performance after thousands
    of
    miles of motoring.

  4. Keep the hub (big ball) clean with a scrubber pad so that
    swinging
    blades don’t hang up on barnacles. Keep blades painted with a
    good,
    hardish bottom paint and don’t scrub it off…just wipe…at
    least that was our experience with VIVID.

Nuff said… Hope this helps.

Good sailing…and motoring,

Fargo

— On Tue, 11/25/08, Fred Molden <fmolden@…> wrote:
From: Fred Molden <fmolden@…>
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Kiwi 3 blade feathering prop
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 11:36 AM

Hello Doug,

I installed a Kiwi three blade feathering
prop on my F35 in place of the bronze 2 blade folding prop. I
find it
will drive the boat at 5.5kts at 2500 rpm even into heavier wind
and seas (such
as one might see on the Chesapeake). At high rpm the top end is
the
same and at low rpm the low speed is much faster. Reverse is much
better
than the two blade and I will come out of the slip at an idle. It
will
also stop the boat within about two boat lengths from 6kts. The
only
small issue has been some dings on the leading edge from hitting
things but
these were fixed with a little bit of filing and if I wanted I
could install a new
single blade for about $100. I use Propspeed as the anti fouling
paint
very successfully. The prop vibration has also decreased
significantly making
the boat much quieter under power. On a go slow day (most of the
time) I
run at 2000 rpm and the engine is barely audible and I can talk
with people in
the cabin while I am at the helm, and still make 4.5 - 5 kts. I
did the
ICW once and spent a lot of time at 2800-3000 rpm just to make
distance, I am
looking to do it again at 2500-2700 rpm and actually make the same
or better
time. I haven¢t noticed much difference in sailing performance
over
the folding prop.

Wow, just as a disclaimer, I do not have
any connection to Kiwi.

Fred

From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FreedomOwne
rsGroup@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of douglas.domurat

Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008
8:45 AM

To:
FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Kiwi
3 blade feathering prop

Hi,

Perhaps this has been discussed before but I may have missed it.
Has

anyone installed a Kiwi feathering 3 blade prop on an F30? or F?

whatever? I read good things on the internet as in excellent
sailing

performance due to less drag and better reverse control, etc. But
I

also hear top speed is sacrificed slightly for maybe better
mototring

in a chop. Blah blah blah. This is all compared to a fixed 2
blade.

Any experience out there?

Thanks,

Doug

Posted by Fargo Rousseau (fargo_r@…>)
Hi Doug:I take it that you are corresponding with John Blundell at KIWI. He is an excellent fellow who knows his business. He knew the engine/gearbox very well and I filled him in on the prop clearance issue and hull form and weight. He did the rest. I don’t remember the pitch degree as sent. Our F30 bottom was about like new, after soda blasting and days of work by my wonderful wife. So the boat had a very smooth VIVID White bottom…and my wife ended up with a powerful left hook…which she was tempted to demonstrate about three days into that project. I did the waterline while she did the bottom… I thought that was fair.But, in spite of the slick bottom, the prop, as it arrived from John, was slightly over pitched and the engine would not quite rev up to full RPM. So I
cut the pitch angle by turning the adjustment screw out about 1/3 of a turn (from memory) which takes seconds to do…and we hit the nail on the head. Full throttle, full RPM in calm conditions. Very smooth, efficient cruise at about 2750 to 2850 RPM. Every engine is different…and it is possible my exhaust riser was not a clean as it should have been…so the pitch issue may have been due to our particular set-up. FargoexF30 #12— On Tue, 11/25/08, douglas.domurat <douglas.domurat@…> wrote:From: douglas.domurat <douglas.domurat@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Kiwi 3 blade feathering prop, an F30 experienceTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 7:22 PM

Hi Fargo, (and Bob and Fred),

Thanks for sharing your experience. It appears that the overall view
is rather positive. Do you have the spec from Kiwi other than the
16inch size? They quoted 16 inch by 20 degrees. I’m actually looking
at both motoring performance as well as sailing improvement. Seems
like a reasonable investment. Thanks to everyone. IF I go ahead and
buy the Kiwi I’ll report my experience as well.

Cheers,

Doug

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, Fargo Rousseau
<fargo_r@… > wrote:

A replay of an older post of mine about our Kiwi experience on our
F30…which is now in the able hands of Rick and Jayne in Oriental,
NC:

I have two inquires about the Kiwi Prop…so let me answer them
together. But before covering our experience, let me answer your
first
question. Kiwi does have two sizes…but trims both of them to fit
the
engine, gearbox, hull requirements. You should have more than 1
1/2
inches of clearance between the prop tip and the hull. The
drawings on
their website should help you make a good judgment about the fit
and
the owner of the company has a lot of experience matching his prop
to
many boats.

We replace the stock 2 blade fixed prop (14x14) with
a Kiwi 3 blade just before leaving on our four thousand mile round
trip
south from Connecticut. I was looking for best possible normal
motoring fuel efficiency,

good thrust against wind and sea, plus low sailing drag…all at
the
lowest possible cost (including installation) . Hoped for easy
pitch
adjustment and simple service.

We would probably have to repeat the trip with three or four
different
props to say which one was the best overall prop, but we loved
almost
everything about the Kiwi…almost but not everything. Here is
what
we learned on our Freedom 30 with the stock, original Yanmar 2GM20F
with a 2.62:1 gearbox and a 16 inch Kiwi.

  1. Normal motoring efficiency was excellent. We averaged about
    14 statue miles per gallon
    in the Waterway under a mix of conditions. (typically 2650 rpm and
    5.3
    knots…a bit slow, yes…but we felt terrible about using fuel to
    move a sailboat and were trying to minimize fuel use…and still
    make 60
    to 70 statue miles a day.

  2. We always felt confident that
    we could motor against a head-sea and headwind and often did.
    Against a
    12 to 15 knot wind in open water, speed sagged only about 1 to 1.5
    knots from normal cruise. We could turn unwind into 25 knots or
    more to
    reef or furl with confidence and power.

3.We always loved the sailing performance of the boat and felt
that the
Kiwi was doing a good job for us…but never really raced her
against
other F30s to prove she was faster because of the prop.

  1. We could back anywhere we wanted to…after I learned to
    get up a little way before expecting directional control.

  2. Fine tuning the pitch is extremely simple, although a little bit
    makes a big big difference (half turn of the allen head bolt equals
    about 300 rpm…or so).

  3. Plastic blades hold antifouling paint amazingly well (Pettit
    VIVID).

  4. John, at the factory, is an outstanding fellow…always honest,
    helpful, prompt, knowledgeable (I think he designed the blade).
    You
    will have a supportive friend there for life if you buy this prop.

Also learned:

  1. Kiwi prop sings an
    initially disturbing song in the 1700 to 2200 rpm on the tach
    (which we
    would never have used anyway). This tuneful harmonic dies in the
    normal and most efficient prop rpm around 1000 to 1100, 2600 to
    2850
    engine rpm. I may have contributed to this problem by the addition
    of
    paint to the blades???

  2. The Kiwi doesn’t like floating or submerged branches.
    Leading edge,
    which is very sharp, dents and deforms from striking floating
    debris.
    After our trip I sanded out everything and the prop performed well
    after my “repair” (as directed by the factory). Would question
    choice
    of this prop if living in an area with a lot of floating debris.

  3. Long distance
    motoring in muddy conditions increases the need to lubricate the
    blade
    shaft. I did not understand why our prop blades where getting
    stiff on
    their shafts when I arrived in Florida. I thought it was caused by
    fouling at the hub. But it turns out that fine dirt particles get
    packed up inside the shaft area of the blade…and “tighten up”
    the
    clearance between the plastic blade and the metal shaft that
    supports
    the blade and acts as the pivot. A grease hole is provided on each
    blade to push this contamination out…but I did not lube the
    blades
    often enough. However, prop removal and blade removal is very
    easy to
    do (very different from most other feathering props). When cleaned,
    everything returned to normal, as new performance after thousands
    of
    miles of motoring.

  4. Keep the hub (big ball) clean with a scrubber pad so that
    swinging
    blades don’t hang up on barnacles. Keep blades painted with a
    good,
    hardish bottom paint and don’t scrub it off…just wipe…at
    least that was our experience with VIVID.

Nuff said… Hope this helps.

Good sailing…and motoring,

Fargo

— On Tue, 11/25/08, Fred Molden <fmolden@… > wrote:
From: Fred Molden <fmolden@… >
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Kiwi 3 blade feathering prop
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 11:36 AM

Hello Doug,

I installed a Kiwi three blade feathering
prop on my F35 in place of the bronze 2 blade folding prop. I
find it
will drive the boat at 5.5kts at 2500 rpm even into heavier wind
and seas (such
as one might see on the Chesapeake). At high rpm the top end is
the
same and at low rpm the low speed is much faster. Reverse is much
better
than the two blade and I will come out of the slip at an idle. It
will
also stop the boat within about two boat lengths from 6kts. The
only
small issue has been some dings on the leading edge from hitting
things but
these were fixed with a little bit of filing and if I wanted I
could install a new
single blade for about $100. I use Propspeed as the anti fouling
paint
very successfully. The prop vibration has also decreased
significantly making
the boat much quieter under power. On a go slow day (most of the
time) I
run at 2000 rpm and the engine is barely audible and I can talk
with people in
the cabin while I am at the helm, and still make 4.5 - 5 kts. I
did the
ICW once and spent a lot of time at 2800-3000 rpm just to make
distance, I am
looking to do it again at 2500-2700 rpm and actually make the same
or better
time. I haven¢t noticed much difference in sailing performance
over
the folding prop.

Wow, just as a disclaimer, I do not have
any connection to Kiwi.

Fred

From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FreedomOwne
rsGroup@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of douglas.domurat

Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008
8:45 AM

To:
FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Kiwi
3 blade feathering prop

Hi,

Perhaps this has been discussed before but I may have missed it.
Has

anyone installed a Kiwi feathering 3 blade prop on an F30? or F?

whatever? I read good things on the internet as in excellent
sailing

performance due to less drag and better reverse control, etc. But
I

also hear top speed is sacrificed slightly for maybe better
mototring

in a chop. Blah blah blah. This is all compared to a fixed 2
blade.

Any experience out there?

Thanks,

Doug


\