I’m still in process of attatching reef lines to sails. I have one reef point on mizzen and two on main. I beleive they are in 5’ slabs. I could be wrong as mizzen reef did not seem to be 5’ from mast head when I took in a reef. When I take sails back to Greg I will have him put one more reef in mizzen. Boat was so under powered originally that he thought one in mizzen was sufficient.
My masts seem very bendy when your at the top in a chair. And surprisingly the mizzen has more bend than the main. You would think that the main having more exposed area above deck would be the more flexible one.
Just a thought about my masts. When I bought the boat the main mast was broken just above the deck. I repaired the break and switched the main and mizzen mast positions. That put the break inside the cabin by about 2’. Never did find out what caused the main mast to break but it was during hurricane Charlie with boat at the dock and no sails on. I was thinking that the wishbone fell and started banging into the front of mast where that tang for the outhaul sheave is welded. With the broken mast and the boat in a state of disrepair I got a pretty good price on the boat, 1 usd. The boat sat at the dock for 5yrs without any attention so I may have over paid. Numbknots
I’m very interested to learn how you repaired the broken mainmast. I bought my F44 as a hurricane Katrina victim (not for one buck though). Both my masts were sawn in halfway 1’ to 2’ below the masthead. Boat was declared a total loss because of that.
Many interesting points. My preferred sailmaker (who has bought a Tanton in the US to sail to UK next May) has given me 3 options: 1. Tides Marine track & single ply sails. 2. Sleeved luff either with zip, or stainless snap hooks to webbed on D rings covered with velcro flap (recommended method) or 3. The original two ply wrap arounds. If I decided on the track what is the recommended fastening method with CF spars? The wishbone hoist would also require different fittings. It might be possible to fit it using a hired cherry picker. If choosing the sleeve version the battens would obviously not be full length
While putting some 2500 miles on my boat last year, I found that it is mainsail delivering most of a drive upwind. I reef mizzen first at about 15-17 knots of wind and I take second reef on mizzen in wind over 22-25 knots. As long as mainsail is not reefed, the boat can sail upwind. Taking a reef on mainsail significantly reduces upwind performance, marginal to begin with. I believe that it is more important to have double/triple reef points on mizzen sail than having second set of reefs on mainsail…
Stainless rivets long enough to make sure that the blobs are fully inside the mast and do not enlarge the hole. Tides Marine Strong Track can be fitted without taking the mast down.
The wishbone hoist would also require different fittings.
While putting some 2500 miles on my boat last year, I found that it is mainsail delivering most of a drive upwind. I reef mizzen first at about 15-17 knots of wind and I take second reef on mizzen in wind over 22-25 knots. As long as mainsail is not reefed, the boat can sail upwind. Taking a reef on mainsail significantly reduces upwind performance, marginal to begin with. I believe that it is more important to have double/triple reef points on mizzen sail than having second set of reefs on mainsail…
CrazyRU,
Is your mainsail flat enough when reefed? If not, that would explain your difficulty sailing upwind with the main reefed. I sometimes have trouble getting the main flat (resulting in excessive heel) when I haven’t first fully tightened the choker to get the wishbone in the aftmost position before I put in the reef.
I had a similar reefing scheme on my F33/35 catketch:
(Apparent wind)
15 kts 1st reef mizzen
20 kts 1st reef main
25 kts 2nd reef mizzen
30 kts 2nd reef main
35 kts mizzen down
Never sailed that boat in winds over 45 kts.
Michel, my mainsail is flat enough when reefed.
Unlike Knothead, I’m not complaining about upwind performance, it seems like my boat is very decent sailboat overall unless wind drops below 7 knots. I don’t have staysail which may help in very light winds…
However, I found that while beating into wind, keeping mainsail unreefed is most productive.
I’d follow your scheme at any other point sail, except when I’m trying to get upwind.
When close hauled
15 kts 1st reef mizzen
20 kts 2nd reef mizzen
I try to keep mainsail up as long as I can, even pitching, if sea conditions would allow.
25-30 kts - first reef on mainsail.
I wish I had third reef on my mizzen, I’d try it first…
I find, when going to windward, that if the wind is strong enough to require a reef, then the sea is rough enough to spoil the performance: the sea-kindly hull just doesn’t slice through the waves the way my old Baltic Sea cruiser did. The upside is that, keeping the hull as upright as possible, easing the sheets and bearing away a little, she goes quite well in moderate to heavy weather.
My new main, a sleeve and zip style, set well even with a reef (haven’t yet needed to use the second one), especially after a thousand miles or so, when it is much less stiff. I know that stiff sails are meant to be more efficient, but this is less important if you don’t have a huge roach, and can control the shape with the outhaul spreading its pull well up the luff of the sail. Surely this is the point of the Freedom rig?
The discussion about the rotating ring rig on the other board seems to miss this point, too. Why have a complex system which would be unsailable if it jammed, when you can design a boat to sail upright by using a more efficient sail design. These guys are locked into Marconi rig without thinking through their actual, rather than imagined, needs.
Gerald, I completely agree. I’m active on the Petit Bateau solo racing forum as well and it’s incredible how fixed minded even racers are. Of course they ask how it’s possible to sail without wires holding up your mast. When I give them the ‘Wilbur and Orville Wright used wires, Boeing and Airbus don’t. So who’s right?’ pitch, they still are not open to receive information about other rig types. It’s also staggering to find how ISAF, RORC and IRC rules are circling around the Marconi rig. I will probably be forced by these rules to carry a storm jib and a heavy weather jib while racing. The size of these jibs is a percentage of the size of your foretriangle, which is non existent on a catketch, so that’s going to be fun! Did you know that also under IRC rules, you can only get a measuring certificate when you have a maximum of two masts? So you’re not even allowed to race with a three master.
Seems by the posts latley I’ve started a bit of a fire storm with the Freedom die hards. I really have only one thing to say and that is, POLARS. Lets see where these rigs perform and do not perform thats all. Oh by the way, RU it’s Numbknots not knothead.
Michel as far as mast repair that was a long ordeal. I originally contacted Sponberg, he gave me some advice, most of which helped but as usual alot of tweaking was involved. I had to replace the 4’ missing at the break to keep the length as original. (The short version) first I finally decided to sleeve the inside with a 6’ tapered aluminum tube. Tube is 1/4" thick and it was tapered by a machine shop here so as to fit inside diameter of mast. once that was done I buttered it with 5200 marine adhesive. I then slammed that in the mast and centered it up. I found on line a supplier that made fiberglass tubing similar to the chinese handcuffs we played with as a kid. That is about the only way I can explain the material. It basically is woven and able to pull down tight on a tube from 8’ down to 4’. I started with carbon fiber but then changed it to just fiber glass. I used that to build up the difference in the mast at the break and it worked very well. I then used 2" fiberglass tape and wraped the entire pole in both directions top to bottom. I faired that out and then pulled the total length of mast with that same woven material I used earlier to fair in the lower portion of mast where the aluminum post was. I used a heavier gague material first then pulled another one of lighter gague to use as a final layer. Using west systems epoxy as the major binder. Once I faired the surface I primed and painted, now that is another story. Numbknots
Ops, my bad, Numbknots I apologize.
I’d love to see POLARS too, however it is hard to find any information about Freedom 28. I don’t know how much ballast I have, and what part of it in centerboard.
There is no firestorm. I respect your opinion, and it is valuable one, you, after all, trying to race the boat and have some hard data.
During my trip from Houston to New York City I have never felt handicapped by boat’s inability to go to weather. Actually, I’m pleasantly surprised that I can go anywhere using sail power. Is the boat slow upwind? - yes, she is. Can she go to weather? - sure she can.
It is my assessment so far. I may change my opinion, after all, I own the boat for three years only. More sailing is lying ahead…
Gee Numbknots, what a heck of a job on your mast. Seems like you can keep the boat upside down standing with the mast heads in the ground, so strong this repaired mast must be. Do you find any difference in bending characteristics in the top half between the original mast and the mast that was wrapped in additional fiber and resin? I would love to reinforce my mizzen (original Freedom) to make it as stiff as my main mast (newly built, thicker, heavier).
About the polars: we will have to make these ourselves. There is an official PHRF polar for a Freedom 44 centreboard, which I scaled down for the Freedom 33/35 catketch based on difference between the two boats in theoretical hull speed. But I believe this plot gives too low speeds for broad reaches and runs. Perhaps you can scale it down for the F28ck and have a starting point. Attached is the spreadsheet with numbers and plots. It contains tables for the F44, F40 and F33/35 cat ketches.
I also use a freeware program called NavmonPC http://www.navmonpc.com/ that can keep a spreadsheet log of all your instrument readings. If you collect enough data under different sailing angles and wind speeds, you could create your own plots. My wind speed doesn’t work, so could not use it so far. VPP F44 w plots.xls (305 KB)
Tough to determine mast bend now as I wrqped both masts to rid my self of those ugly cracks inherient in Freedoms. Both masts seemed to be the same thickness so I figured they were of equal flex overall. Now I find the new mizzen, although shorter, is more flexible than the main (which is the old mizzen).
With the old main mast in the mizzen position now the break is 2’ inside the cabin. The aluminum sleeve originally was going to be above the mast collar by 6" for extra overlap. I then figured, why make a hard spot where it could be transfered into a breaking point. I cut off the sleeve so it now is inside the mast collar by 1" and is surrounded by spartite and there is no way that is going to move a fraction. Masts look great now and painted a light jade color which matches bottom paint.
I found when installing the tides marine track, it was best to use 10-28 panhead stainless screws rather than 10-32. Seems the 10-32 offers more threads, obviously, but the carbon fiber is very brittle and the extra thickness of the 10-28 screw threads seemed to hold better. I personally liked the idea of threaded attatchment over rivets mostly because the tracks require the clip-s to be put on 5" centers 1ft above and below each batten and 2’ at head and tack positions then the distances between the batten spacing opens up to another deminsion which I have now fogotten some how. The rivets spaced this close would put to much pressure I thought as it spread down the mast as the bulge in rivet squeezed against the inside of the mast. You only get one shot at putting a rivet in, also and if they rip out what do you do then? I was able to go to 6mm screws when my upper track ripped out it was a pain turning the heads down to fit but they are secure now. Another thing I did was use a 6" piece of solid sail track at the top which I secured to mast. Then I was able to slide the new mast track up again and things have been happy on Clave’ ever since. I would if at all possible remove mast to do this job. If you must do it in the air I have my thoughts as how to attack that if anyone is intrested, or foolish enough to try. Numbknots
I must admit I have better experiences with tapping thread and using screws too. My Antal main track is screwed, the Tides Marine mizzen track is riveted. The rivets come out at the bottom few holes so I need to replace these. But even so, threading and screwing also has a few risks; these mast walls are not really thick enough have a long enough thread. Like you, I always use the largest diameter machine screws possible to have a long enough thread. And I liberally use Locktite to prevent the screw from moving and thus eating away carbon fiber.
On this topic has anyone had experience of the G10 rig? it appears to have the advantages of the single-ply fully battened sails without the expense & commplication of fitting tracks.
I’m not familar with the g 10 rig. Im guessing its a sleeve sail, no. If so how would you put full battens in it with no solid place for the battens to push against?
I have heard of a type of batten that uses air pressure to hold sail shape. Some type of pump would be needed to inflate them and of course the “kiss” principle would then be thrown out the porthole. Numbknots
Yes, I’ve raced with my F44 against an F33/35 with the G10 rig. Hard to keep in front of them. The G10 has no sleeve but is hoisted on a tight luff line tensioned behind the mast and assisted with parrel lines around the mast. There’s a powerpoint presentation somewhere on this board with the details. Inventor is Gio (hence G10) Schouten.
Windsurfsails have sleeved sails with full battens too. Seems to be no problem there.
Michel Wrote:
“Windsurfsails have sleeved sails with full battens too. Seems to be no problem there.”
Problem is that they can have a tight fitting sleeve, since the sail is not hoisted, and you don’t need to leave space for halliard and reefing lines in the sleeve. The sleeve on mine is 1.5m deep, and I now realise that this is smaller than is optimal: 2m would be the minimum to be able to get inside to work on the boom harness and attachments. That would be too deep for any batten to be thought of as full length. I accept the smaller battens (with less roach) and bear away a bit more when going to windward, setting a staysail in lighter airs. My blade staysail makes a big difference in light to moderate airs and the wind ahead of the beam. If that doesn’t suit, I usually just motorsail, or, better, go some other direction!
I apologize.