Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)
2 things: A. a locating device to center the mast and prevent it
from rotating.
B: a connection for the mast ground.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Herman Schiller”
<hschiller2@…> wrote:
Given that the Mull designs never had wraparound sails or wishbone
booms, what explains the single bolt at the masts of these
boats? Herm SV Impulse
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@> wrote:
Peter,
And as you might expect the answer is no. My F-33 was converted
but still
used the 1 pin/bolt at the base. This caused some abrasion and
I’ve worked
out a different method now including reinforcing the bases of
the
mast on
the inside. I’m sure some folks don’t realize until its too late
if they
don’t have their mast removed occasionally and especially if
they
don’t have
the masts well wedged.
I think the later freedoms had a different base arrangement.
Now I understand why they were designed with just the one
pin/bolt. I
thought it was just a bad design but your comment about the
original rig
really explains their rationale!
Thanks,
Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR
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From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 2:33 PM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Shakedown cruise - F-40 Cat-
Ketch
Michel,
I have been thinking about this stuff (wrap-arounds vs. single
ply) for
quite a while. The problem with the radar is not so severe, as
you
can
mount it on a post at the stern. The other two points you are
mentioning
may be overcome by a combination of Gios solution on Samiel and
a
luff
pocket around the mast instaed of fixing the sail by way of a
line.
Sails with luff pockets have been proven on Wharram catamarans
as
well
as Freedoms (see the picture in the Photos-section) for years.
Single ply sails on mast tracks impose lots of torsional forces
on
the
masts, even more so, if combined with conventional booms. In
1996
I met
a Freedom 38 CK with single ply sails on mast tracks in
Horta /Azores,
whose main mast had been turned around by about 160 degrees with
the
rags that once were the sails still flying from the mast.
The original wrap-around layout has but minimal mast torsion if
any and
consequently the masts are only fixed with one screw at the
base.
I
wonder if all the Freedoms that have been converted have taken
this
into account.
Peter
michel.capel wrote:
I’ve worked with wrap-arounds for 8 years on my previous
Freedom;
Reefing and dousing was okay, the only 3 drawbacks were
-the weight (1.5 times the weaight of single ply sail)
-the fact that you cannot attach anything to the mast (radar
etc)
-the fact that you cannot have full battens and a nice roach.
Posted by Fargo Rousseau (fargo_r@…>)
Not aware that the bolt at the mast base has anything to do with the mast ground. A green wire is attached to the masthead fitting and exits the mast with the other lighting wires. This is the only ground that I know of. Fargo F30#12macks011 <macks04@…> wrote: 2 things: A. a locating device to center the mast and prevent it from rotating. B: a connection for the mast ground. — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Herman Schiller” <hschiller2@…> wrote: > > Given that the Mull designs never had wraparound sails or wishbone > booms, what explains the single bolt at the masts of these > boats? Herm SV Impulse > > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz” > <akusinitz@> wrote: > > > > Peter, > > > > > > > > And as you might expect the answer is no. My F-33 was converted > but still > > used the 1 pin/bolt at the base. This caused some abrasion and > I’ve worked > > out a different method now including reinforcing the bases of the > mast on > > the inside. I’m sure some folks don’t
realize until its too late > if they > > don’t have their mast removed occasionally and especially if they > don’t have > > the masts well wedged. > > > > > > I think the later freedoms had a different base arrangement. > > > > > > > > Now I understand why they were designed with just the one > pin/bolt. I > > thought it was just a bad design but your comment about the > original rig > > really explains their rationale! > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR > > > > > > > > > ********************************************************************* > * > > > > The information contained in this
e-mail and any attachments is > intended > > only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s) > named above > > and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If > the reader > > of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent > responsible for > > delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that you > > have received this document in error and that any review, > dissemination, > > distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. > If you have > > received this communication in error, please notify us immediately > by > > e-mail, and delete the original message. > > > > > ********************************************************************* > * > > > > _____ > > > > From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Schaefer > > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 2:33 PM > > To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Shakedown cruise - F-40 Cat- Ketch > > > > > > > > Michel, > > > > I have been thinking about this stuff (wrap-arounds vs. single > ply) for > > quite a while. The problem with the radar is not so severe, as you > can > > mount it on a post at the stern. The other two points you are >
mentioning > > may be overcome by a combination of Gios solution on Samiel and a > luff > > pocket around the mast instaed of fixing the sail by way of a > line. > > Sails with luff pockets have been proven on Wharram catamarans as > well > > as Freedoms (see the picture in the Photos-section) for years. > > > > Single ply sails on mast tracks impose lots of torsional forces on > the > > masts, even more so, if combined with conventional booms. In 1996 > I met > > a Freedom 38 CK with single ply sails on mast tracks in > Horta /Azores, > > whose main mast had been turned around by about 160 degrees with > the > > rags that once were the sails still flying from the mast. > > > > The original wrap-around layout has but minimal mast torsion if > any and > > consequently the masts are only fixed with one screw at the base. > I > > wonder if all the Freedoms that have been converted have taken > this > > into account. > > > > Peter > > > > michel.capel wrote: > > > I’ve worked with wrap-arounds for 8 years on my previous > Freedom; > > > Reefing and dousing was okay, the only 3 drawbacks were > > > -the weight (1.5 times the weaight of single ply sail) > > > -the fact that you cannot attach anything to the mast (radar etc) > > > -the fact that you cannot have full battens and a nice roach. > > >
Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)
The mast ground must have a disconnect somewhere or you can’t pull
the mast. In my boat’s case, the connection/disconnect is at the
locating bolt I refered to, just as all the mast wires have a
disconnect close to the mast base…
d— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Fargo Rousseau
<fargo_r@…> wrote:
Not aware that the bolt at the mast base has anything to do with
the mast ground. A green wire is attached to the masthead fitting
and exits the mast with the other lighting wires. This is the only
ground that I know of.
Fargo
F30#12
macks011 <macks04@…>
wrote: 2 things: A.
a locating device to center the mast and prevent it
from rotating.
B: a connection for the mast ground.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Herman Schiller”
<hschiller2@> wrote:
Given that the Mull designs never had wraparound sails or
wishbone
booms, what explains the single bolt at the masts of these
boats? Herm SV Impulse
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@> wrote:
Peter,
And as you might expect the answer is no. My F-33 was
converted
but still
used the 1 pin/bolt at the base. This caused some abrasion
and
I’ve worked
out a different method now including reinforcing the bases
of
the
mast on
the inside. I’m sure some folks don’t realize until its too
late
if they
don’t have their mast removed occasionally and especially if
they
don’t have
the masts well wedged.
I think the later freedoms had a different base arrangement.
Now I understand why they were designed with just the one
pin/bolt. I
thought it was just a bad design but your comment about the
original rig
really explains their rationale!
Thanks,
Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
is
intended
only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient
(s)
named above
and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so
marked. If
the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified
that you
have received this document in error and that any review,
dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly
prohibited.
If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us
immediately
by
e-mail, and delete the original message.
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Peter
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 2:33 PM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Shakedown cruise - F-40 Cat-
Ketch
Michel,
I have been thinking about this stuff (wrap-arounds vs.
single
ply) for
quite a while. The problem with the radar is not so severe,
as
you
can
mount it on a post at the stern. The other two points you
are
mentioning
may be overcome by a combination of Gios solution on Samiel
and
a
luff
pocket around the mast instaed of fixing the sail by way of
a
line.
Sails with luff pockets have been proven on Wharram
catamarans
as
well
as Freedoms (see the picture in the Photos-section) for
years.
Single ply sails on mast tracks impose lots of torsional
forces
on
the
masts, even more so, if combined with conventional booms. In
1996
I met
a Freedom 38 CK with single ply sails on mast tracks in
Horta /Azores,
whose main mast had been turned around by about 160 degrees
with
the
rags that once were the sails still flying from the mast.
The original wrap-around layout has but minimal mast torsion
if
any and
consequently the masts are only fixed with one screw at the
base.
I
wonder if all the Freedoms that have been converted have
taken
this
into account.
Peter
michel.capel wrote:
I’ve worked with wrap-arounds for 8 years on my previous
Freedom;
Reefing and dousing was okay, the only 3 drawbacks were
-the weight (1.5 times the weaight of single ply sail)
-the fact that you cannot attach anything to the mast
(radar
etc)
-the fact that you cannot have full battens and a nice
roach.
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
Peter,
I second your analysis of the torsional forces on the mast in case
of conventional booms. I’m not sure if the track and slide add to
the torsion; the bend in the forward end of the batten will absorb
most of that, I think.
It is true however that many Freedoms suffer from loose mast bases
and torn holes around the bolts. Boom and vang problems and
breakages are also seen here regularly. These are all symptoms of
the far from ideal forces that - i.m.h.o. - conventional booms pose
on the freestanding masts. On my F44, I have wishbones and single
ply sails on a track. I have yet to experience if and how this will
work. I’m rerigging to Wylie/Nonsuch/Tanton style fixed height
wishbones. The previous owners used the wishbones horizontal, which
denies the advantages of a properly angled wishbone.
For my previous boat, a F33/35, I had plans to have sails made with
a luff sleeve, like on the Wharrams, but I sold the boat before.
Indeed, the radar can be mounted on a pole on the transom and the
other disadvantages are not so bad.
Michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<petersch@…> wrote:
Michel,
I have been thinking about this stuff (wrap-arounds vs. single
ply) for
quite a while. The problem with the radar is not so severe, as you
can
mount it on a post at the stern. The other two points you are
mentioning
may be overcome by a combination of Gios solution on Samiel and a
luff
pocket around the mast instaed of fixing the sail by way of a
line.
Sails with luff pockets have been proven on Wharram catamarans as
well
as Freedoms (see the picture in the Photos-section) for years.
Single ply sails on mast tracks impose lots of torsional forces on
the
masts, even more so, if combined with conventional booms. In 1996
I met
a Freedom 38 CK with single ply sails on mast tracks in
Horta /Azores,
whose main mast had been turned around by about 160 degrees with
the
rags that once were the sails still flying from the mast.
The original wrap-around layout has but minimal mast torsion if
any and
consequently the masts are only fixed with one screw at the base.
I
wonder if all the Freedoms that have been converted have taken
this
into account.
Peter
michel.capel wrote:
I’ve worked with wrap-arounds for 8 years on my previous
Freedom;
Reefing and dousing was okay, the only 3 drawbacks were
-the weight (1.5 times the weaight of single ply sail)
-the fact that you cannot attach anything to the mast (radar etc)
-the fact that you cannot have full battens and a nice roach.
Posted by katorpus (katorpus@…>)
Ackkkk!!
Andre
Please tell me your sailmaker didn’t cut the sail to add more area
to the TOP of the sail than he did to the BOTTOM…extra sail area
up high where it mostly serves to increase heeling is not near so
good as keeping it down low.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette
<andrelaviolette@…> wrote:
Michel,
How true !
My very roachy full battened main with a rigid ( Garhauer )
vang packs a surprising amount of power.
Its nearly elliptical shape and all that extra sail area up
high devellops a lot of power.
Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Katorpus, These boats are undercanvased for predominant light air. Use traveler. If it blows, Reef. Elliptical sails are way more efficient. Note the " square top " mains now in use on catamarans.katorpus <katorpus@…> wrote: Ackkkk!!AndrePlease tell me your sailmaker didn’t cut the sail to add more area to the TOP of the sail than he did to the BOTTOM…extra sail area up high where it mostly serves to increase heeling is not near so
good as keeping it down low.— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette <andrelaviolette@…> wrote:>> Michel,> > How true ! > > My very roachy full battened main with a rigid ( Garhauer ) vang packs a surprising amount of power.> Its nearly elliptical shape and all that extra sail area up high devellops a lot of power.> >
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