I live in Boston, am expecting to buy a new mainsail this winter, and have gotten quotes from the standard NorthEast people (Thurston, Doyle, North):
Doyle proposed either a Dacron high roach sail of about 560SF, or a Dacron high square top with their anomaly headboard of about 570SF.
North proposed a Dacron square top of about 521SF. No idea how this would flake.
Thurston proposed a laminate high roach mainsail of about 517SF.
I think that the square tops look pretty (perhaps more important than how they work). A very fussy friend however claims that he’s heard of longevity problems with the Doyle square tops.
May I ask whether other people have heard of such longevity issues, as well as thoughts around putting up that much sail?
There are no problems making square head mains so long as the geometry of the loads on the slides is correctly addressed. I had two on my F21 (the 2nd one wasn’t a replacement, it was a development) and I have one on my F25 currently. Doyle designed all three, no issues there on longevity or construction. I know that Doyle had an issue with a laminate square head on an Alerion 38 in the Boston area but that was a failure of a supplied membrane, it was repaired and lasted and performed just fine until the owner sold the boat. As far as a laminate compared to a dacron sail, the laminate will be lighter and probably won’t last as long but will provide superior performance, if that’s what you’re looking for. I know that all my square heads have added about 5-7% more area, it doesn’t seem to make much difference over 10 knots, there’s more punch below that and it’s always faster down wind. All three sailmakers make excellent sails so you can’t go wrong there, it all depends on what you’re looking for in both performance and durability.
Hi Andrew,
I sail an F35 out of Marblehead. We too are looking at new sails. I am looking at Thurston’s tri-radial dacron sail. Costs more than the cross cut dacron but less than the laminate. I have a laminate sail currently which has delaminated. It can’t be cleaned in the condition it is in. You can recognize my boat by the dirty sail! Longevity is driving me toward the tri-radial sail.
Thanks, I’ll probably go back to Steve and ask for an update in triradial dacron. Still undecided about which sail, but more competition always better than less.
The previous owner of our freedom 28 cat ketch upgraded to squaretops from Knighton sailmakers Sarasota Fl loft. My first squartops.
Make sure they include a system to unplug your gaff batten. It is a pain inserting the battens and they need to be removed when the sails come down unless you like a 10-15sq ft shark fin flying all the time. I found that was more sail than I wanted at 60knots;-) But it makes our look even more distinctive. The sailmakers each have their own way to release the gaff now. And they call it by a different name. I think it is a good addition if not included in your initial bid.
Here is Clave just before hoisting and sailing away from the dock:
Thanks, I was indeed wondering about the gaff approach taken by sailmakers. Doyle pushes the a dipping headboard (http://www.doylesails.com/anomaly/), though I imagine that adds considerable complexity to large sails. But I haven’t seen alternatives from other vendors (and the North proposal didn’t include any corresponding information).
Knighton told my brother who talked the the sailmaker that theirs was a better solution.
As i mentioned, just about all the sail makers have their mod of solving this issue. Theoretically it gives more effective sail area at the tip …I cant say. The previous owner claimed advantage, but said the change didn’t make the boat go better upwind.
I got a new Square Top from Mack Sails 12 months ago and have been extremely happy with the performance and price. Mack uses top shelf USA made Dacron; cuts & sews the sails in Stewart, FL; and somehow manages to sell them for close to Thailand loft prices!
The guys at Mack originally made the sail with the top batten and pocket 4’ long. It performed well but I had specked 3’ so I sent it back to be re-cut per my original order (no charge). It cost me a couple sq.ft. but I haven’t noticed any loss of performance. The important thing for me is how much easier it is to get the shorter batten in and out of the sail. The batten pocket is secured with a 8" Velcro flap over the end.
That does look very pretty. I’ve asked Steve about the Triradial Dacron high roach mainsail, but it’s hard to compete with a picture like that. Particularly as the technical problems become better understood and less expensive (Doyle is quoting about 800$ price differential between a standard “High Roach Bluewater” sail and the corresponding Square Top).
I just wanted to add a note for the historical record: I ended up buying a square top mainsail from Doyle. I purchased it in the late fall discount period, originally with the idea of hoisting it a few times this year to check on fit, etc. But the weather conspired against that approach, so instead it’s sitting at the Doyle factory waiting for spring (will post photos when it arrives).
Including discounts, the final cost was around 6k — about 500$ more than a triradial Dacron mainsail from Thurston. Pairing against the much greater sail area (570sf vs 520sf), we set up a very aggressive first reef near the normal second reef point.
I just wanted to close this thread by mentioning that my new mainsail (together with Tides Track and a Doyle Cradle Cover) arrived a few weeks ago, and I took them off on their maiden voyage this weekend. They seem like very nice sails: in winds varying from 9kn to 20kn I was going consistently 4.5-6kn upwind, and 5-8kn on other points of sail.
NB: I don’t want to get in fights with anyone, but I was also struck by the fact that Doyle was much more responsive and easier to deal with than the standard Freedom sailmaker from whom I bought my jib. The jib was shipped in fire-and-forget mode, whereas the main was set up for me the first time and I’ve gotten a few iterations of tuning from Doyle since installation.
Thanks again to everyone who helped with the decision.
I am getting new sails from Doyle. I actually ordered them a year and a half ago, but did not put them on the boat last year due to illness in the family.
One of the “original” Freedom sailmakers in RI did not get my business. I did get a bid from him.
When he learned that I ordered from someone else, he sent me a VERY nasty email and told me that I also “burned bridges” with his brother who makes other canvas and I could no longer do business with his brother.
I replied that I thought that he was being childish (in 5th grade, you could tell someone that they could not play with your brother, but we are adults now).
I thought to sending his email on to his parent company (the one with the Q) to let them know about the quality of their representative in RI but I decided to just leave it alone.
He keeps his boat at the same yard as I do, and he has made my wife very uncomfortable with his nasty looks.
So, personally, I advise people to avoid him.
Sailmaking is a small business and in the long run, a lot of it is about your relationship with the sailmaker.
