Storm tactics with single mast rig

General Discussion
1

I am looking ahead to bringing “Elizabeth” back north from Puerto Rico next year, probably by way of Bermuda, and I wanted to get a bit smarter on tactics out there. My only serious storm experience offshore was a gale off of Cape May on the way down. After losing my anchor gear (at least I learned something about the need for heavy lashing), we basically hunkered down for about ten hours of motoring and hand steering, and that seemed to work okay in that situation. I was wondering if anyone had any offshore storm experiences with a F35, F40/40, of F45.

I don’t mean just quick squalls and thunderstorms, usually you can just lie ahull for those. I am looking more for ideas on the 1-2 day heavy weather encounters that you might face at sea, which you try to avoid through good planning, but forecasts can be dicey after a few days out…

It seems to me that the F40/40 has pretty limited options in heavy weather. There is no forestay for a trysail, and the main is still pretty big on mine when fully reefed. My experience has been that I can get by motoring for a while in 40 kts and 10’ seas, but I imagine that there may be conditions where the stability offered by some sails would be preferable. With that big main, and the self-tacking “vestigial” jib, heaving-to doesn’t seem to be feasible, either. Has anyone had experience with deploying a drogue, with these designs?

Seems like this might be a good topic for all to contribute.

Regards,
John

2

Brought a 1988 Freedom 45 back up the coast of Baja to San Diego (they call it the Bash) and had the jib box pull out. Just lashed the jib stay and camber spar to the toe rail and kept going.

However, I advise that you check the jib box pop rivets for corrosion before you do a passage where you will be in heavy weather.

James

3

John and I have been discussing this via e-mail, but I’ll simply post a summary of my comments to him.

I’m happy to say that I’ve never been in a prolonged storm at sea. I firmly believe that while you can’t choose the weather that you sail in, you can choose the weather that you leave in. By looking at the forecasts and extended US forecasts, you have a pretty good idea of what will be happening for the next 5+ days. Five days will get you to Bermuda and then to the US. The probability of a large storm forming out of no where is pretty small given that time window.

I will say that the first time that I moved the boat from RI to the BVIs, the wind didn’t drop below 32-35 kts for about 5 days. I would sit in the cockpit at night and watch the dinghy that I was towing (!!!) try to out-race the boat. I’d sit and try to convince the wind that dropping below 32 kts would be a very good thing…It didn’t work…We were well bruised by the time that we made it to the BVIs. And we chewed through the reefing line quite often. Speaking of which, I’m switching from a 1st and 2nd reef to a 2nd and 3rd reef. The first reef is useless as it just adds more belly to the sail and doesn’t get rid of enough square footage.



My chafing on the reef lines occurred at the mast where my reef lines go through rings mounted to the mast just above the top of the boom. This allows the forward reef lines to pull straight down to the blocks at the base of the mast. When running down wind the reefing lines are pulled at a 90 degree angle across the track which chafes them. I’ve never had any chafe internal to the boom.



I was just looking for a photograph which showed my reef points and found this one that’s back-lit



I haven’t sailed with the 3rd reef. I tried to rig that when I put up the sails this year, but I found that I need longer reefing lines in the boom. I’ve found that almost every time that I’ve only put in the 1st reef, that I’ve wished that I would have gone for the 2nd.

I haven’t had any recent chafing issues at the mast. That may be due to either lighter wind sailing conditions or the fact that I’m not letting the boom out as far. I found that the bat cars were breaking because they were getting too much angle put on them. They’re only good to 110 degrees and with the boom out at 90 degrees, the sail shape added more than 20 degrees, which caused them to break. This also really stretched the reefing line tight against the track.

– Geoff

4

After a very rough sail of 10+ hours in the northern great lakes (large, steep, square seas all to typical in a big blow) and pulling in the first then second reef, I also decided to have a 3rd reef added to a new main that was on order. I will also be utilizing just a 2nd and 3rd reef point (as soon as I purchase longer reef lines). It looks to me like I will have to use single line reefing on the 3rd reef since the boom is only 17" long and I think the internally doubled reef line for the 3rd reef will run out of room. I plan to use a block to turn the upper reef line at the forward reef attachment point on the sail, through the guide and to the deck block before turning the line to the cockpit line stopper.

Bruce

5

Looking at the picture of Blue Jacket I wonder if it would be possible to fly a trisail from the mast. Many boat over here have a seperate track on the mast starting maybe a foot or so off the deck and running up the mast, parallel to the mainsail track, for perhaps a 3rd of the mast’s height. Often the trisail is left permanently hanked on and bagged at the base of the mast. It is then deployed by dropping the main, changing over the main halyard, hoisting and sheeting back on to the boom. having its own track avoids the need to drop the main out of its track. My boat is a schooner and the po advised me that to heave to he would put 3 reefs in the main(mizzen) and take in the foresail. Having said that in 50,000 miles of ocean cruising he had never had to heave to. His journey included the Straits of Magellan. I have just been reading a book by Hal Roth on that area (Two against Cape Horn), to say conditions can be wild is an understatement. In my own limited experience with the F39 I have sailed in 45 knots true with double reefed main and single reef in the fore sail and she seems to love it, surfing up to 11.5 knots, what a ride, and we stayed dry on deck. I did have to turn up wind briefly to repair a line and suddenly we have 50 knots apparent and we’re getting wet. For that brief time we were hove to, the sheet was off the fore sail but the sails seemed quite happy - not flogging at all. In practical terms though I try to avoid a hard slog to windward, it’s hard on the boat and the crew, so heaving to would be my preferred tactic. I have noticed the F39 is quite snappy, rolling with no sail up and I wonder if this is due to there being less weight up there (inertia) to slow the roll, so lying a hull I would think would be quite uncomfortable. If the breeze was too much for the triple reefed main, I have a storm staysail that can be set from the main(mizzen) mast. Kind regards,

6

Deciding on how to cope with bad weather would mainly be dependent on where the boat is. Main question is there enough lee room?

We experienced some bad weather while crossing the Atlantic from Warren River to France with our F38 along the 40th parallel in spring 2005. Weatherfax charts showed a low with expected winds 30-35 knots. The winds actually did built up to 55-60 knots in the course of two days. In that situation there was all the lee room we needed. Wind and waves were building gradually giving us time to adopt.
When winds kept building we divided from our course to run before the wind. We had a third deep reef in the main and a 3th reefline was made before we left. ( Reefline not through the boom but alongside it). We took in reefs with rising of the windforce. Thriling sailing.
Huge long waves where we surfed down with 12-13 knots.
When wind rose to 45-50 knots we were running under bare poles. Still making 7-8 knots downhill. We steered not by hand but with autopilot. Altough with the three of us, we were getting tired by the weather.
Autopilot kept us better on course then we did by hand.

Although we did bring a drogue along with us for keeping the stern to the wind to prevent broaching we did’nt need it really. Autopilot kept us without a problem running dead from the wind. When winds were rising to 55+ knots we prepared our parachuteanchor. The moment it was ready to be deployed the wind did’nt increase any further and started to drop after an hour. We kept running under bare poles and tried to catch up with some rest and sleep. During the night wind decreased to 35-40 knots, still running under bare poles, waves became a little more confused.
In absolute dark there was a sudden noise above the wind ’ like a train rushing towards us’ . Before we knew a rogue wave fell upon us throwing the boat on beam end ( damaging the tricolor).

We had battened down well, so little water entered the boat. Boat rightened itself directly. The crewmember on watch was still aboard
thanks to the strong points we had made in the cockpit to attach the lifelines. He escaped with bumps and bruises.

The storm subsided and we made the trip to the Azores and from there to France.
I have confidence in Freedom’s to cope with a lot of wind esp when there’s enough searoom to run.

I have no experience with Freedom’s when the leeshore is too close to run. I think I should try to ly to. Or maybe rig a stormtrysail with a separate track on the mast

When someone on the forum does have experience with lying to with a Freedom on/or use of a trysail I would gladly hope he/she will share the experience.

Next season I am going to make the same trip, a bit more south from the BVI to the Azores. I hope to have found out beforehand how to handle a storm when deciding not to run before the wind.

Fair winds,

7

Hans,
Thanks for your detailed reply on Freedom storm tactics. It’s great to know the boat can handle weather in that range, at least when running is an option. Also glad to hear you came through a knockdown so well. I hope we can keep this thread going, as I think it’s improtant to know how this rig works in more challenging conditions.

Incidentally, I now have my F40/40 back in RI. The trip up form Puerto Rico last November was windless for the first week, forcing us to motor west through the Bahamas for about 1000 NM to Florida. I had to go back to work at that point, so two pros took her north from there. They ran into 40+ knot winds in northern Florida, while around 100 miles off the coast. I wish I had added that third reef for them, as they were pushed hard with double reef, and my ongoing mast base issue recurred. They quickly dropped the main, as the mast (mine is 64’ 9" above the waterline, which later became important!!!), began to jump around, moving as much as 4" at the base. The guys tried to secure the mast a bit, using halyards as stays, and they motored into Beaufort when conditions allowed, after almost two days of hand-steering and serious worries about the mast coming down on them.

Once in port, they blocked off the mast base with pieces of hardwood, and rerigged the “halyard stays”. Wisely deciding to skip the Hateras offshore leg with this jury-rig, they headed up the Intercoastal. The ditch became problematic, as the wind-driven waters had increased the low-water level, and some of the fixed bridges were only giving 62’ to 63’ of clearance at low water. Once the water level subsided a bit, they rigged fuel cans and my valise life-raft (about 150 lbs total) to the end of the extended boom to create maximum heeling, and they still caught the anchor light on one of the bridges! After several days, they were able to head outside at Norfolk, and then headed north up th ecoast in relatively calm, but somewhat icy December conditions.

My boat is now on the hard in Barrington, with the mast unstepped for the first time. Paul Dennis has looked it over, and feels that the source of the problem may be an improper layup of the area below the mast step. We are looking at a fairly pricey project, involving removal of the bulkhead and floorpan, and building up of the area on the hull, (the box around the mast step and the bonding layers beneath it) needed to securely attach the mast step to the hull. Also need minor repairs on the mast step casting and the mast gelcoat. The boat should look like new when done, and should be stronger then when it came out of the factory.

I am also looking at adding a third reef, and possibly shortening the mast height and rig to around 62", to allow me back on the Intercoastal. I will probably switch my reeflines to work only the second and third points whenever I go offshore.

John

8

I would like to clarify for Daysailor, that a storm trysail is rigged from the mast, usually from a seperate track and not from a forestay as he seemed to believe. This was mentioned by several other posters, but I thought perhaps it might not be clear. That said, I myself have wondered about storm tacticks with my F-33CK and have considered adding a track for a storm trysail. Would love to know if anyone has done this and what others thoughts are about doing this. The third deep reef does sound like a very good thing to have, and perhaps that is enough? Also, I recall it being mentioned about someone with problem of masty moving in the mast base and see that it is mentioned here also. I did some researching of the original commisioning literature that came with my F-33 and I mentioned in another thread about epoxy that Freedom included to make up for any space between the mast and the base collar. Well, I also see that they call for the mastbae or collar to be throughbolted to the mast step(as is /had been done) on my F-33 and that also the mast is through bolted to the mast base or “collar” They mention drilling through the predrilled and tapped holes in the collar into the mast and then inserting the trhreaded bolts into the collar and mast, thereby pinning the mast to this collar. FWIW. Rick

9

The US and GB have often been described as two nations divided by a common language…

Pardon my ignorance but, per chance, is “lay a hull” anything like “hove to”? What I am asking is; are they terms like lorry for truck and bonnet for hood or, do they mean totally different things?

10

Actually, they are really two different things. Laying ahull is basically just taking in all sail, battening down the hatches, and letting the boat find her own way through the seas. Heaving too is setting up the boats sails, rig so that she basically will lay head to sea/wind or more precisely about 40-50 degress off the wind and will make a very slow maybe one knot or so forwardmotion and giving up very little to leward. Usually in a typical sloop rig, this entails backing the jib and putting the helm down so that the boat wants to head up. There are differnt ways to actually do this depending on the boat but what you try to do is balance the forces generated by a shortened rig, the rudder and the wind. I am still experimenting on doing this with my F33- CK which requires a differnt technique due to her rig, . Hope this helps.

11

Thanks! I had never heard the term “laying ahull” before joining this forum. Now I know.

12

Rick,
I am a catketcher too. Have wondered often how a trysail would do, but couldn’t figure out if it should be on the main or mizzen or both. And I see lots of problems with raising a trysail because of my wishbones with lazyjack/cradle lines. Don’t see how the trysail can pass inside the wishbone. and I am not fond of the second track with lots of extra holes.

I feel a storm jib, set as a mizzen staysail between the main and mizzen mast might be more effective in stabilizing the boat. Depending on conditions and desired course the sail could be set more of less forward in the gap between the masts. I have an 8’ track along the centre line for mizzen staysails. The mizzen would have to be stabilised by two running backstays to effectively tension the luff of the storm jib.

With third reefs on a split rig like on the catketch, you have effectively eight basic sail configurations not including the storm jib/staysail.

A reefing schedule could look like this (I used this for years on my F33 catketch with 2 reefs in each sail, so up to 35 kts):

Apparent wind speed:

15 kts → 1st reef mizzen
20 kts → 1st reef main
25 kts → 2nd reef mizzen
30 kts → 2nd reef main
35 kts → 3rd reef mizzen
40 kts → 3rd reef main
45 kts → mizzen down (effectively heaving to with mainsail with the quarter to the wind or running. Instead, the main can be taken down and the mizzen set with 3 reefs to heave to with the bow at 50* - 70* to the wind.)
50 kts → main down (lying ahull)

13

Thanks Midnightsailor for explaining. I did’nt know how to translate correctly from Dutch.

What I meant is: to heave to. I used it an other boats when cruising singlehanded when I wanted some peace cooking and eating.
Backing the jib, boom almost midships and helm lashed to lee. Boat wants to luff what is counteracted by the backed jib. Boats stays more
or less on the same spot, riding the waves like a bird. It’s amazing how easy and quiet the motion of the boat becomes when speed through the water
is gone and the motion is stabilized by the wind pressure in the sails.

On single mast Freedoms the mast is positioned much more forward than on other boats. The mainsail is much more bigger than the jib on the one mast Freedom’s. They have a tendency to luff easily when wind increases. So I wonder how a Freedom will behave when heaving to in lots of wind. Any experience is welcome.

A third reef in the main is something I can recommend. But the sail must be made with the forces of a third reef and 45+ winds in mind.
Otherwise the huge windforces stretches the sailcloth so much, it looses shape quite soon, becoming too full in top. Just want you want to avoid.

Just changing the first single ‘in boom’ reefline to the third reef on the Freedom wo’nt work I think. Because of the single reefline system in the boom, the heigth of the reef is limited. For that reason I changed back to the ‘old’ system on the 45ft AC. Dropping the main, new tack attached to the mast near gooseneck, single reefline through boom. Disadvantage: you have to go on deck to attach tack on mast; but advantages: 1) ‘height’ of reef no longer limited by boom-mechanism making third deep reef easily possible, 2) no longer chafing risc of reefline as mentioned earlier in this post 3) less blocks and turning angles of reefline resulting in easier reefing, less power is needed. 4) by regulating the power on the reefline better control over the shape of the foot of the sail.

To hove to with a 2 mast Freedom could be tried by backing the foresail ( tying it to the toerail?), sheeting mainsail hard in and helm a lee. When falling of too much from the wind, reefing the foresail.

When someone has experience with heaving to, I would gladly hear it. When I will get some experience on this subject. I will share on this forum,

Fair winds,

14

Hans,
I tried that several times with the traveller of the main completely to windward, but it did not work well with full sail. The boat was pushed flat on its side. There’s another thread on this board about an Atlantic crossing on a cat ketch where the main is taken in completely. The bare main mast has enough wind pressure to keep the bow at about 60* to the wind.

15

Michel,
I think this is an excellent discussion and extremely helpful , atleast for me. I think that your suggestion to try using a storm jib on the mizzen, between the two mast is definately an idea worth trying. This is in keeping with my view that keeping the center of effort low and as close to the center of the boat as possible is a good thing. I know that this is the idea with using a trysail and storm jib on a typical sloop rig. The real goal, IMHO, is to keep the boat balanced but with enough sail to be able to claw to windward. Since being close to a lee shore in storm conditions is the real threat, the ability to be able to claw off this lee shore is what is important. So what ever will give the boat this ability is the goal. Like you mention, it is a guess as to how a trysail might be set up, fore, aft or both masts. I have pondered this myself. Maybe a trysail on the foremast and a storm jib off the mizzen! :laughing: Kinda of backwards, but at this stage with my experience with the Freedom ck, everythings a guess! I Also agree pretty much with your sail reduction schedule, only because it seems to make sense, not based on any experience I have, since I have just bought my Freedom33 CK and all my prior experience(over 45 years ) is on almost every other kind of rig. I do think it seems a bit conservative though, since I thought that one would be able to carry full sail on these boats in higher wind ranges, perhaps, 25 kts. I base this not on any experience just the idea that the unstayed carbon masts would tend to flex and spill some wind at higher gusts and thus not require reefing as early. But I definately will defer to your more, and real experience.
The information that TP included with my boat includes a sail reduction shedule , in which they call for the the mizzen to be reefed first, ie, 1st reef, 2nd reef, then drop mizzen, then reef main, 1st, 2nd and then drop main (bare poles) .
Your schedule seems to be a more balanced approach.
I guess I have alot to try whenever I can get out under small craft warnings. I have to mention that this is the second attemp at posting this reply , the first, more thought out, clearer, and in depth post dissapearted (gosh, I hate when that happens :cry: :imp: ) and this one seems to be about to do the same so I am going to quit while I am ahead(I hope), Rick

16

My main and mizzen on my F-33 (straight booms) were made with 2 deep reefs. Last year I had a third reef put in my mizzen. I considered doing the same for the main.
Instead I had a wraparound storm trysail made by the company that makes the gale sail (ATN inc). I ordered a stock trysail of the correct size and had it shipped to ATN. They added the sleeve with hanks that they use on their gale sail for storm jibs.
I would have liked to be able to use it on either main or or mizzen but my radome on my mizzen is too low and I didn’t want it that small.
I have raised it to experiment but have not used it in storm conditions.
Some reasons I like this approach are that there is no need to add a track, no risk of damaging slides or the existing track. The hanks are quite large an easy to handle. It appears with some practice it can be packed in the bag in a way that you could have the tack, clew, and head near the top and attach the lines to all three and then raise the head to bring it out of the bag. Ideally this is done with one person at the mast and one in the cockpit raisng the halyard. To do it single handed would require a way to secure the halyard near the mast at least temporarily.
I was in one extended gale for a few days where I should have used it but we were running downwind with just double reefed main and were under good control (but more strain on thins then necessary and we did jibe once or twice which would have been much gentle with the trysail especially if not sheeted to the boom).
Alan

17

Alan,
That sounds like an excellent approach, thanks for sharing that. It seems like such an obvious way to go once it is pointed out. Especially like the fact that no extra track is required. Are they any downsides to this appraoch that you have come across? Do you have to remove the mainsail from the mast track to fly this trysail? Would love to see a picture if you have any to post. Would you mind sharing the cost of this setup, ie: the cost of the trysail plus the cost of having it converted. I have , what sounds like the exact same setup on my F-33CK. It has regular booms(standard-nonwishbone) and presently two sets of reefs in each sail. I am looking to add a third set but perhaps I don’t need to do this on the mainsail. So much to learn about this new boat of mine and I am dying to get out there in some high winds and try out some of these techniiques and suggestions. Rick

18

Rick, as to your first point quoted above: I totally agree. Therefore the storm jib should not be too small; it must have the driving capacity to push the boat against wind and sea. Conventional sloop rig calculations (ISAF and RORC) always take into account that there’s a trysail in addition to the storm jib. These calculations for maximum storm jib area cannot be applied therefore.

On your second point, indeed my F33 reefing schedule was a bit conservative and focussed towards my pendulum vane steering gear to keep on working the large outboard rudder.
On my F44 when running, I keep full sails up to 25 kts apparent wind. When sailing upwind, I put the first reef in the mizzen at 20 to 25 kts. I found that when the boat (also the F33) heels over 20*, you can reef without loss of speed; you might even gain some speed and headway. It’s easy to see when you heel more than 20*; the outside edges of the coachroof slope 20* down so the windward top of the coachroof should remain level, or else I reef.

Your third point, about Freedom suggesting to first reef down the mizzen and then the main, surprises me. I read somewhere in my English (my F33 was UK built) documentation that the catketch is best handled under most circumstances with both sails (or part of both) up. So their advice was to gradually take in both sails. Another reason they gave, was that keeping one sail fully up under storm conditions might load up the mast too much. With two sails part up, both masts are only loaded on their bottom halves.
My own experience added to this learns that the load on sheets, halyards and outhauls is much less so the partly reefed sails can be managed much more easily. Also, jibes and tacks are much less violent with reefed down sails.

19

Interesting posts. On a subject that could be called “What not to do under reef, learned the hard way”, I went out in 45knt + or - winds with wrap around sails and wishbones on f28ck. I left dock with mizzen down and one reef in the main. The other big mistake I made was thinkiing that if I skirted the sail below the booms I would reduce the sail area even more. Not realizing that the lower portion of the sail acts as a vang of sorts. With that wind speed and one sail up the boat just did not want to come about and the water was getting skinny. I decided to jibe, thats when things got ugly. The wishbone boom goose winged without the help of the lower sail area and as it came across the raised clew of the main slammed into the fwd end of the mizzen boom and locked. These boats REALLY fly in that situation especally once the leech of the main rips opens up and main turns into a spinaker. This all ends after about 30 seconds, which seems like 30 minutes, when the main splits all the way around the luff and half goes to the top of mast and the other part adds to the terror by sounding like a Harley Davidson with straight pipes at full throttle. This all caused many smiles and beers on returning to club with laundry flying proudly at the mast head. Numbknots

20

I purchased a stock trysail from www.thesailwarehouse.com after after figuring out the dimension needed and the right size sleeve diameter so it will slide easily up the mast (bigger is better) with help from Etienne at www.atninc.com . He helped figure it to ensure reasonable sheeting angles once we had setted on an approximate square footage Remember I have a very deep second reef and wanted this for real storm conditions. I also needed make sure its luff length was short enough to stay below the attachment point for the lazy jacks and about the stack height for the main (I did not want to have to release the mainsail slides from thetrack although this is easy todo if I need to.
One secures the mainsail and brings the lazyjacks forward and low to the boom. Attach the halyard, secure the foot and loosely secure the sheet end to something. Pull the halyard so you can clip the top hank around the mast to the sleeve and then continue to raise and attach the remaining few hanks. On mine I can sheet around the boom through an heavy eye that aready existed in the bottom of the boom track (for his just a single sheet is needed. Or I can attach blocks to my midcleats and run the sheet aft.
Its a small sail so as long as you have control over the halyard it seems okay. Compared to using a third reef (which means you risk your primary sail in storm conditons) the ease of use will partially depend on whether the reef lines are prerigged and snag free and don’t abraid in hard use. Of course a trysail with a separate track and prerigged should be easier but it will still put strain on the track and track attachment.
For some reason I can’t locate my receipt and order so I can’t (at last today) provide dimensions.
The cost was $750. I believe around $250 was to Etienne and the rest was for the trysail itself.
This could be done less expensively but Etienne was quite helpful and experienced with the gale sail. I couldlalso have bought a used trysail instead of a new one. In storm conditions little design details can make a big difference.
I can also fly the stormsail with a little extra sail area but not wrapping it around but by attaching to loops to some extra sail slides. This would be a jury rig if the main or mizzen failed (not really for storm conditions). Or I could use as a mizzen staysail although the sail shape/sheeting angle would be poor.
Alan