upwind: was(Re: Numbers (back to the polar thing))

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1

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed
increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased wind
making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the boats can be a
bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail.

There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a jib on a
sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but
appraently it really helped.

One other thing. When discussing Freedoms that came in both cat ketch
and cat sloop rigs it’s very helpful to designate which one you’re
referring to. IE 35ck. Sizes that had both rig variations are the 28,
35, and 40.


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Alfred Roberts
<lab2doodle@…> wrote:

Is 52 degrees the closest Freedoms can sail to windward?? We’ve
beem looking at some F35s and may be interested.

Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@…> wrote:
Here’s an example of a polar plot for a J-30

http://www.sailingsource.com/j30/splash/images/j30polars.jpeg

Now explain exactly how you plan to derive true wind (not indicated
wind as shown on your anenomter) with your current set of instruments.
In order to do it you’ll need to correct your indicated wind for the
following parameters.

Influence of boat movement taking into account both velocity,
direction, sideslip, and effect of local currents.

Now this can be readily done provided you have the proper
instrumentation. Remember you’ve got to interface a GPS into this
system to provide the most critical indication which is the movement
of the boat over the bottom. Once the precise movement vector is known
then the computer can remove the effect of boat movement from
indicated wind velocity and direction so that the true wind component
can be used to consult the polars.

How many Freedom owners have the appropriate instruments and
electronics to derive true wind speed and direction? With the
exception of some race boats I haven’t seen that capability on a boat.
I’m sure there are a few cruisers with the money to outfit the boat
with that electronic suite. Unless you have the electronics those
polars are pretty much worthless. I’m sure if they were printed on
some nice paper and framed they would make a wonderful decoration.
Might be fun to mount that framed document in the head so you’d have
something to peruse while seated.

A good sailor can combine his or her sensory perception of the boats
movement, feel/position of the helm, and the position of telltales to
tell if the boat is moving efficiently or not.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@>
wrote:

“jerry_magic1” <jerry_magic1@> wrote:

— “Dave_Benjamin” wrote:

You shouldn’t need polars to figure out that the sails need
tweaking
or trimming. (snip) I’m sorry but a cruising
sailor needs polars about as much as a fish needs an umbrella.
(snip}

Yea, Yea, Yea, Yea - It’s beginning to sound like an issue on
rec.boats.
You sure your name isn’t Capt Neal? :slight_smile:
…snip…

Ack! If that idiot starts posting here, along with the recent
spate of
spam from tessa_whoever, I’m gonna stop lurking!

Frank

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2

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

My understanding on that jib was that its main purpose was to help
pull the bow through the wind to facilitate faster tacking. if
you’ve got a crew of two or more, you can accomplish a similar feat
by putting someone at the main sheet and holding it to backwind the
main (unless you’ve got an adjustable traveler arrangement, in which
case, you’re already set for this). I found the backwinding maneuver
very helpful two summers ago coming out of Salem where it gets
really narrow - the winds were fairly light and tacking this way
probably saved me nearly a knot (speed drop 2 kts instead of 3
during tacking).

I agree that windspeed affects the pointing ability. On the rare
occasion that you have 10-12 kts and FLAT seas, it’s possible to get
a cat ketch to tack through 90 - 95 degrees. However, as most other
CK owners have already pointed out, you will do better to foot off a
little, go substantially faster, and take the hit on not ‘pointing’
with your neighbors.

Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed
increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased wind
making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the boats can
be a
bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail.

There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a jib on a
sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but
appraently it really helped.

3

Posted by Frank Maier (PVMaro@…>)

My memory, which could be wrong, is that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

“lance_ryley” <lance_ryley@…> wrote:

My understanding on that jib was that its main purpose was to help
pull the bow through the wind to facilitate faster tacking. if
you’ve got a crew of two or more, you can accomplish a similar
feat
by putting someone at the main sheet and holding it to backwind
the
main (unless you’ve got an adjustable traveler arrangement, in
which
case, you’re already set for this). I found the backwinding
maneuver
very helpful two summers ago coming out of Salem where it gets
really narrow - the winds were fairly light and tacking this way
probably saved me nearly a knot (speed drop 2 kts instead of 3
during tacking).

I agree that windspeed affects the pointing ability. On the rare
occasion that you have 10-12 kts and FLAT seas, it’s possible to
get
a cat ketch to tack through 90 - 95 degrees. However, as most
other
CK owners have already pointed out, you will do better to foot off
a
little, go substantially faster, and take the hit on
not ‘pointing’
with your neighbors.

Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@> wrote:

The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed
increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased wind
making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the boats
can
be a
bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail.

There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a jib on
a
sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but
appraently it really helped.

4

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

FRom my experience on our 39 ketch I’d have to say that the boat
really doesn’t need any help in tacking. Typically backwinding a jib
like that is only beneficial on very small and light boats that loose
momentum quickly. We used to backwind the jib to help our small racing
cat tack. There are some full keel boat that are sluggish in the tacks
also. The 44 has a pretty good underbody so it doesn’t really fit in
those categories.


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

My understanding on that jib was that its main purpose was to help
pull the bow through the wind to facilitate faster tacking. if
you’ve got a crew of two or more, you can accomplish a similar feat
by putting someone at the main sheet and holding it to backwind the
main (unless you’ve got an adjustable traveler arrangement, in which
case, you’re already set for this). I found the backwinding maneuver
very helpful two summers ago coming out of Salem where it gets
really narrow - the winds were fairly light and tacking this way
probably saved me nearly a knot (speed drop 2 kts instead of 3
during tacking).

I agree that windspeed affects the pointing ability. On the rare
occasion that you have 10-12 kts and FLAT seas, it’s possible to get
a cat ketch to tack through 90 - 95 degrees. However, as most other
CK owners have already pointed out, you will do better to foot off a
little, go substantially faster, and take the hit on not ‘pointing’
with your neighbors.

Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@> wrote:

The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed
increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased wind
making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the boats can
be a
bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail.

There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a jib on a
sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but
appraently it really helped.

5

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

Trust me. on the freedom 40 CK, especially if you have any kind of
sea on the bow, the conditions can quickly get to the point where it
is difficult to tack without backwinding the main. I’ve had the boat
go from 4.5 kts to 0 and only be head to wind. not fun.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

FRom my experience on our 39 ketch I’d have to say that the boat
really doesn’t need any help in tacking. Typically backwinding a
jib
like that is only beneficial on very small and light boats that
loose
momentum quickly. We used to backwind the jib to help our small
racing
cat tack. There are some full keel boat that are sluggish in the
tacks
also. The 44 has a pretty good underbody so it doesn’t really fit
in
those categories.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@> wrote:

My understanding on that jib was that its main purpose was to
help
pull the bow through the wind to facilitate faster tacking. if
you’ve got a crew of two or more, you can accomplish a similar
feat
by putting someone at the main sheet and holding it to backwind
the
main (unless you’ve got an adjustable traveler arrangement, in
which
case, you’re already set for this). I found the backwinding
maneuver
very helpful two summers ago coming out of Salem where it gets
really narrow - the winds were fairly light and tacking this way
probably saved me nearly a knot (speed drop 2 kts instead of 3
during tacking).

I agree that windspeed affects the pointing ability. On the rare
occasion that you have 10-12 kts and FLAT seas, it’s possible to
get
a cat ketch to tack through 90 - 95 degrees. However, as most
other
CK owners have already pointed out, you will do better to foot
off a
little, go substantially faster, and take the hit on
not ‘pointing’
with your neighbors.

Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@> wrote:

The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed
increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased
wind
making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the boats
can
be a
bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail.

There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a jib
on a
sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but
appraently it really helped.

6

Posted by Alfred Roberts (lab2doodle@…>)
Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East Greenwich. I think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke at the deck.Frank Maier <PVMaro@…> wrote: My memory, which could be wrong, is that the owner of the F44 with the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus pointing ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from having it simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.Frank"lance_ryley" <lance_ryley@…> wrote:>> My understanding on that jib was that its main purpose was to help > pull the bow through the wind to facilitate faster tacking. if > you’ve got a crew of two or more, you can accomplish a similar feat > by putting someone at the main sheet and holding it to backwind the > main
(unless you’ve got an adjustable traveler arrangement, in which > case, you’re already set for this). I found the backwinding maneuver > very helpful two summers ago coming out of Salem where it gets > really narrow - the winds were fairly light and tacking this way > probably saved me nearly a knot (speed drop 2 kts instead of 3 > during tacking).> > I agree that windspeed affects the pointing ability. On the rare > occasion that you have 10-12 kts and FLAT seas, it’s possible to get > a cat ketch to tack through 90 - 95 degrees. However, as most other > CK owners have already pointed out, you will do better to foot off a > little, go substantially faster, and take the hit on not ‘pointing’ > with your neighbors.> > Lance> > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin” > <dave_benjamin@> wrote:> >> >
The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed> > increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased wind> > making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the boats can > be a> > bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail. > > > > There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a jib on a> > sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but> > appraently it really helped.>
Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

7

Posted by Frank Maier (PVMaro@…>)

Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.

Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@…> wrote:

Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East Greenwich. I
think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke at the deck.

Frank Maier <PVMaro@…> wrote: My memory, which could be wrong, is
that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

8

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

I could see that happening with your boat. Our 39 had a fairly
modern Ron Holland designed hull w/ modified fin and skeg hung
rudder. The 40 is a much different boat being a Hereshoff design
with a lot of underwater volume forward. My recommendation would be
to foot off slightly for speed and then tack so you’re turning down
the backside of the wave.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

Trust me. on the freedom 40 CK, especially if you have any kind of
sea on the bow, the conditions can quickly get to the point where
it
is difficult to tack without backwinding the main. I’ve had the
boat
go from 4.5 kts to 0 and only be head to wind. not fun.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@> wrote:

FRom my experience on our 39 ketch I’d have to say that the boat
really doesn’t need any help in tacking. Typically backwinding a
jib
like that is only beneficial on very small and light boats that
loose
momentum quickly. We used to backwind the jib to help our small
racing
cat tack. There are some full keel boat that are sluggish in the
tacks
also. The 44 has a pretty good underbody so it doesn’t really
fit
in
those categories.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@> wrote:

My understanding on that jib was that its main purpose was to
help
pull the bow through the wind to facilitate faster tacking. if
you’ve got a crew of two or more, you can accomplish a similar
feat
by putting someone at the main sheet and holding it to
backwind
the
main (unless you’ve got an adjustable traveler arrangement, in
which
case, you’re already set for this). I found the backwinding
maneuver
very helpful two summers ago coming out of Salem where it gets
really narrow - the winds were fairly light and tacking this
way
probably saved me nearly a knot (speed drop 2 kts instead of 3
during tacking).

I agree that windspeed affects the pointing ability. On the
rare
occasion that you have 10-12 kts and FLAT seas, it’s possible
to
get
a cat ketch to tack through 90 - 95 degrees. However, as most
other
CK owners have already pointed out, you will do better to foot
off a
little, go substantially faster, and take the hit on
not ‘pointing’
with your neighbors.

Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@> wrote:

The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed
increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased
wind
making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the
boats
can
be a
bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail.

There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a
jib
on a
sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but
appraently it really helped.

9

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

Frog Kiss is a wonderful boat. I had the pleasure of chatting with
the owner several years ago. I’m not sure if she has changed hands
or not.

Another great cat ketch is Dr. Blake Cady’s Wobegone Daze which is a
36 (yes they made a few 36 ketches) with a highly modified bow. What
they did was create a false bow that added much needed volume to the
bow. Apparently Mull didn’t really design the 36 to handle the
weight of the foremast. It just doesn’t have the volume. I know Mull
felt that TPI got carried away and built the masts too heavy. Come
to think of it many of the TPI hulls themselves tip the scales a few
pounds over design weight. Anyhow the work on Wobegone Daze was
featured in American Boatbuilding magazine. I should try to get the
article photocopied for some of you. Makes me wonder if I shouldn’t
buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr. Cady’s
modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced very attractively
lately.


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@…>
wrote:

Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.

Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@> wrote:

Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East Greenwich.
I
think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke at the
deck.

Frank Maier <PVMaro@> wrote: My memory, which could be wrong,
is
that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus
pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from
having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

10

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)


I’ve sailed on woebegone daze. Ws
quite impressed with the performance of the rig. Engine died on the return and
we had to sail into the slip. Very maneuverable in tight shipping channels
(luckily).
Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51

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and delete the original message.






From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave_Benjamin
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006
12:28 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003]
upwind: was(Re: Numbers (back to the polar thing))

Frog Kiss is a wonderful boat. I had the pleasure of chatting with
the owner several years ago. I’m not sure if she
has changed hands
or not.

Another great cat ketch is Dr. Blake Cady’s
Wobegone Daze which is a
36 (yes they made a few 36 ketches) with a highly
modified bow. What
they did was create a false bow that added much
needed volume to the
bow. Apparently Mull
didn’t really design the 36 to handle the
weight of the foremast. It just doesn’t have the
volume. I know Mull
felt that TPI got carried away and built the masts
too heavy. Come
to think of it many of the TPI hulls themselves
tip the scales a few
pounds over design weight. Anyhow the work on
Wobegone Daze was
featured in American Boatbuilding magazine. I
should try to get the
article photocopied for some of you. Makes me
wonder if I shouldn’t
buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr.
Cady’s
modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced
very attractively
lately.


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“Frank Maier” <PVMaro@…>
wrote:

Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.

Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@> wrote:

Was the boat Betelguise or Frog
Kiss? It is in East Greenwich.
I
think one year the boat was in the race and
the mast broke at the
deck.

Frank Maier <PVMaro@> wrote:
My memory, which could be wrong,
is
that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra
knot of speed plus
pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs
significantly from
having it
simply to help pull the bow through the
wind while tacking.

Frank






\

11

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

I read the piece that Patrick Mouligne of the F44 Frog Kiss wrote
about his jiblet.

If you reread the article by Steve Haarstick published here some
time ago, you understand why a small jib works for both speed and
pointing. The jib accellerates and directs the airflow along the
leeside of the main and prevents the airflow at the leeside of the
main to stall and detach too early. That’s why they started using
jibs on the Freedom catsloops too.

Michel


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@…>
wrote:

My memory, which could be wrong, is that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus
pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from having
it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

“lance_ryley” <lance_ryley@> wrote:

My understanding on that jib was that its main purpose was to
help
pull the bow through the wind to facilitate faster tacking. if
you’ve got a crew of two or more, you can accomplish a similar
feat
by putting someone at the main sheet and holding it to backwind
the
main (unless you’ve got an adjustable traveler arrangement, in
which
case, you’re already set for this). I found the backwinding
maneuver
very helpful two summers ago coming out of Salem where it gets
really narrow - the winds were fairly light and tacking this way
probably saved me nearly a knot (speed drop 2 kts instead of 3
during tacking).

I agree that windspeed affects the pointing ability. On the rare
occasion that you have 10-12 kts and FLAT seas, it’s possible to
get
a cat ketch to tack through 90 - 95 degrees. However, as most
other
CK owners have already pointed out, you will do better to foot
off
a
little, go substantially faster, and take the hit on
not ‘pointing’
with your neighbors.

Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@> wrote:

The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed
increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased
wind
making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the boats
can
be a
bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail.

There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a jib
on
a
sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but
appraently it really helped.

12

Posted by Sailsman10@…> (Sailsman10@…>)

I am in the market for a new boat and have not seen these 36’s advertised anywhere. Where did you see them? Terry in Naples
Terry www.terryandrhonda.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave_Benjamin
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:27 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] upwind: was(Re: Numbers (back to the polar thing))
Frog Kiss is a wonderful boat. I had the pleasure of chatting with the owner several years ago. I’m not sure if she has changed hands or not.Another great cat ketch is Dr. Blake Cady’s Wobegone Daze which is a 36 (yes they made a few 36 ketches) with a highly modified bow. What they did was create a false bow that added much needed volume to the bow. Apparently Mull didn’t really design the 36 to handle the weight of the foremast. It just doesn’t have the volume. I know Mull felt that TPI got carried away and built the masts too heavy. Come to think of it many of the TPI hulls themselves tip the scales a few pounds over design weight. Anyhow the work on Wobegone Daze was featured in American Boatbuilding magazine. I should try to get the article photocopied for some of you. Makes me wonder if I shouldn’t buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr. Cady’s modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced very attractively lately.— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@…> wrote:>> Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.> > Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@> wrote:> > Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East Greenwich. I > think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke at the deck.> > > > Frank Maier <PVMaro@> wrote: My memory, which could be wrong, is > that the owner of the F44 with > > the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus pointing > > ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from having it > > simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.> > > > Frank>

13

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

Link to the article:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Wobegon.htm


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@…> wrote:

I’ve sailed on woebegone daze. Ws quite impressed with the
performance of
the rig. Engine died on the return and we had to sail into the
slip. Very
maneuverable in tight shipping channels (luckily).

Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51

The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments is
intended
only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s)
named above
and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If
the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that you
have received this document in error and that any review,
dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by
e-mail, and delete the original message.

From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Dave_Benjamin
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:28 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] upwind: was(Re: Numbers (back to the
polar
thing))

Frog Kiss is a wonderful boat. I had the pleasure of chatting with
the owner several years ago. I’m not sure if she has changed hands
or not.

Another great cat ketch is Dr. Blake Cady’s Wobegone Daze which is
a
36 (yes they made a few 36 ketches) with a highly modified bow.
What
they did was create a false bow that added much needed volume to
the
bow. Apparently Mull didn’t really design the 36 to handle the
weight of the foremast. It just doesn’t have the volume. I know
Mull
felt that TPI got carried away and built the masts too heavy. Come
to think of it many of the TPI hulls themselves tip the scales a
few
pounds over design weight. Anyhow the work on Wobegone Daze was
featured in American Boatbuilding magazine. I should try to get
the
article photocopied for some of you. Makes me wonder if I
shouldn’t
buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr. Cady’s
modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced very attractively
lately.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@>
wrote:

Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.

Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@> wrote:

Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East
Greenwich.
I
think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke at
the
deck.

Frank Maier <PVMaro@> wrote: My memory, which could be wrong,
is
that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus
pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from
having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

14

Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)

To duplicate Wobgone Daze, You’d also have to install rotating wing
masts,hydraulic vanged wishbone booms and throw in approx $150,000.
US. If you get the 36 for the right price, sounds like a deal to me.

Go for it. I’ll fly out and crew for you.



— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

Frog Kiss is a wonderful boat. I had the pleasure of chatting with
the owner several years ago. I’m not sure if she has changed hands
or not.

Another great cat ketch is Dr. Blake Cady’s Wobegone Daze which is
a
36 (yes they made a few 36 ketches) with a highly modified bow.
What
they did was create a false bow that added much needed volume to
the
bow. Apparently Mull didn’t really design the 36 to handle the
weight of the foremast. It just doesn’t have the volume. I know
Mull
felt that TPI got carried away and built the masts too heavy. Come
to think of it many of the TPI hulls themselves tip the scales a
few
pounds over design weight. Anyhow the work on Wobegone Daze was
featured in American Boatbuilding magazine. I should try to get
the
article photocopied for some of you. Makes me wonder if I
shouldn’t
buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr. Cady’s
modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced very attractively
lately.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@>
wrote:

Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.

Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@> wrote:

Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East
Greenwich.
I
think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke at
the
deck.

Frank Maier <PVMaro@> wrote: My memory, which could be wrong,
is
that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus
pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from
having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

15

Posted by Frank Maier (PVMaro@…>)

Well, nobody’s answered you so I’ll chime in. You see 36 ketches
offered on yachtworld with some regularity. None offered presently;
but just search there occasionally and you’ll see one before too
long.

My $.02 on the subject would be to ask, “Why?” IMO, Mull designed
this boat to be a catsloop; turning it into a ketch is going against
its essential nature. If I wanted two masts instead of one, I’d buy
a 33 catketch. Or a 40. Or a 39 catschooner. But that’s just me.


<Sailsman10@…> wrote:

I am in the market for a new boat and have not seen these 36’s
advertised anywhere. Where did you see them? Terry in Naples
Terry
www.terryandrhonda.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave_Benjamin
] upwind: was(Re: Numbers (back to the polar thing))
…snip…Makes me wonder if I shouldn’t
buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr. Cady’s
modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced very
attractively
lately.
…snip…

16

Posted by gjschouten (schouten@…>)

Folks,
At the Freedom-44 bb at Yahoo is a photo of Frogkiss with its blade
jib. Impressive picture.
Gio


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@…>
wrote:

My memory, which could be wrong, is that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

“lance_ryley” <lance_ryley@> wrote:

My understanding on that jib was that its main purpose was to help
pull the bow through the wind to facilitate faster tacking. if
you’ve got a crew of two or more, you can accomplish a similar
feat
by putting someone at the main sheet and holding it to backwind
the
main (unless you’ve got an adjustable traveler arrangement, in
which
case, you’re already set for this). I found the backwinding
maneuver
very helpful two summers ago coming out of Salem where it gets
really narrow - the winds were fairly light and tacking this way
probably saved me nearly a knot (speed drop 2 kts instead of 3
during tacking).

I agree that windspeed affects the pointing ability. On the rare
occasion that you have 10-12 kts and FLAT seas, it’s possible to
get
a cat ketch to tack through 90 - 95 degrees. However, as most
other
CK owners have already pointed out, you will do better to foot off
a
little, go substantially faster, and take the hit on
not ‘pointing’
with your neighbors.

Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@> wrote:

The pointing ability seems to improve a bit as the windspeed
increases. I don’t think this is just a matter of increased wind
making the apparent wind move forward. I just think the boats
can
be a
bit piggish upwind in light air unless they have a staysail.

There was a F-44 that won the Bermuda One-Two that used a jib on
a
sprit in lighter air. It wasn’t a huge sail by any means but
appraently it really helped.

17

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

Lance,
The article I was referring to is mentioned on that page. At some
point I will try to get it scanned and posted on this website. The
magazine article goes into great detail of the actual construction and
installation of the false bow.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

Link to the article:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Wobegon.htm

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@> wrote:

I’ve sailed on woebegone daze. Ws quite impressed with the
performance of
the rig. Engine died on the return and we had to sail into the
slip. Very
maneuverable in tight shipping channels (luckily).

Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51

The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments is
intended
only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s)
named above
and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If
the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that you
have received this document in error and that any review,
dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by
e-mail, and delete the original message.

From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Dave_Benjamin
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:28 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] upwind: was(Re: Numbers (back to the
polar
thing))

Frog Kiss is a wonderful boat. I had the pleasure of chatting with
the owner several years ago. I’m not sure if she has changed hands
or not.

Another great cat ketch is Dr. Blake Cady’s Wobegone Daze which is
a
36 (yes they made a few 36 ketches) with a highly modified bow.
What
they did was create a false bow that added much needed volume to
the
bow. Apparently Mull didn’t really design the 36 to handle the
weight of the foremast. It just doesn’t have the volume. I know
Mull
felt that TPI got carried away and built the masts too heavy. Come
to think of it many of the TPI hulls themselves tip the scales a
few
pounds over design weight. Anyhow the work on Wobegone Daze was
featured in American Boatbuilding magazine. I should try to get
the
article photocopied for some of you. Makes me wonder if I
shouldn’t
buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr. Cady’s
modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced very attractively
lately.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@>
wrote:

Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.

Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@> wrote:

Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East
Greenwich.
I
think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke at
the
deck.

Frank Maier <PVMaro@> wrote: My memory, which could be wrong,
is
that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus
pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from
having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

18

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

I guess I should have been a cardiologist :wink:


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

Lance,
The article I was referring to is mentioned on that page. At some
point I will try to get it scanned and posted on this website. The
magazine article goes into great detail of the actual construction and
installation of the false bow.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@> wrote:

Link to the article:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Wobegon.htm

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@> wrote:

I’ve sailed on woebegone daze. Ws quite impressed with the
performance of
the rig. Engine died on the return and we had to sail into the
slip. Very
maneuverable in tight shipping channels (luckily).

Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51

The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments is
intended
only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s)
named above
and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If
the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that you
have received this document in error and that any review,
dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by
e-mail, and delete the original message.

From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Dave_Benjamin
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:28 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] upwind: was(Re: Numbers (back to the
polar
thing))

Frog Kiss is a wonderful boat. I had the pleasure of chatting with
the owner several years ago. I’m not sure if she has changed hands
or not.

Another great cat ketch is Dr. Blake Cady’s Wobegone Daze which is
a
36 (yes they made a few 36 ketches) with a highly modified bow.
What
they did was create a false bow that added much needed volume to
the
bow. Apparently Mull didn’t really design the 36 to handle the
weight of the foremast. It just doesn’t have the volume. I know
Mull
felt that TPI got carried away and built the masts too heavy. Come
to think of it many of the TPI hulls themselves tip the scales a
few
pounds over design weight. Anyhow the work on Wobegone Daze was
featured in American Boatbuilding magazine. I should try to get
the
article photocopied for some of you. Makes me wonder if I
shouldn’t
buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr. Cady’s
modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced very attractively
lately.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier” <PVMaro@>
wrote:

Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.

Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@> wrote:

Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East
Greenwich.
I
think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke at
the
deck.

Frank Maier <PVMaro@> wrote: My memory, which could be wrong,
is
that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed plus
pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly from
having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while tacking.

Frank

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

19

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

Yeah me too. Either that or we should have tried to marry someone
with a large trust fund.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

I guess I should have been a cardiologist :wink:

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@> wrote:

Lance,
The article I was referring to is mentioned on that page. At some
point I will try to get it scanned and posted on this website.
The
magazine article goes into great detail of the actual
construction and
installation of the false bow.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@> wrote:

Link to the article:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Wobegon.htm

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@> wrote:

I’ve sailed on woebegone daze. Ws quite impressed with the
performance of
the rig. Engine died on the return and we had to sail into
the
slip. Very
maneuverable in tight shipping channels (luckily).

Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51

The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
is
intended
only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient
(s)
named above
and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so
marked. If
the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified
that you
have received this document in error and that any review,
dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly
prohibited.
If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us
immediately
by
e-mail, and delete the original message.

From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Dave_Benjamin
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:28 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] upwind: was(Re: Numbers (back
to the
polar
thing))

Frog Kiss is a wonderful boat. I had the pleasure of
chatting with
the owner several years ago. I’m not sure if she has changed
hands
or not.

Another great cat ketch is Dr. Blake Cady’s Wobegone Daze
which is
a
36 (yes they made a few 36 ketches) with a highly modified
bow.
What
they did was create a false bow that added much needed
volume to
the
bow. Apparently Mull didn’t really design the 36 to handle
the
weight of the foremast. It just doesn’t have the volume. I
know
Mull
felt that TPI got carried away and built the masts too
heavy. Come
to think of it many of the TPI hulls themselves tip the
scales a
few
pounds over design weight. Anyhow the work on Wobegone Daze
was
featured in American Boatbuilding magazine. I should try to
get
the
article photocopied for some of you. Makes me wonder if I
shouldn’t
buy a 36 ketch with the idea of duplicating Dr. Cady’s
modifications. I’ve seen some 36 ketches priced very
attractively
lately.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Frank Maier”
<PVMaro@>
wrote:

Frog Kiss is the one I’m thinking of.

Alfred Roberts <lab2doodle@> wrote:

Was the boat Betelguise or Frog Kiss? It is in East
Greenwich.
I
think one year the boat was in the race and the mast broke
at
the
deck.

Frank Maier <PVMaro@> wrote: My memory, which could be
wrong,
is
that the owner of the F44 with
the bowsprit jiblet said he got an extra knot of speed
plus
pointing
ability when going upwind. That differs significantly
from
having it
simply to help pull the bow through the wind while
tacking.

Frank

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

20

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

My wife keeps telling me that I didn’t marry well enough to own boats,
but hey - I can’t think of a better reason to be broke :wink:

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

Yeah me too. Either that or we should have tried to marry someone
with a large trust fund.