Use of silicone sealant

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant. I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for. It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore, unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)


I believe TPI did use silicone. I find it
on my 1982 F-33 wherever I take off hardware including pulpits, stanchions etc.

I understand that one place it is needed
is if in contact with acrylic or lexan .
Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51


The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s)
named above and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If
the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that you have received this document in error and that any review,
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by e-mail, and delete the original message.







From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of michel.capel
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 3:59
AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Use
of silicone sealant

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant. I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for. It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore, unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel





\

Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)

The common industry wisdom is as follows: Silicone sealants are for
ports and hatches only. Polysulfides (Life caulk, 3M 101, etc) are
for all above and below water bedding operations. Polyurethanes,
also known as Screw the Next Guy in a Tube, (sika flex, 3M 4200,
3M5200) are basicaly used for areas that wil never, ever be removed,
hull deck jts, drive struts. Freedom liberally used 5200, on their
older boats, as their universal bedding material for production and
warentee issues and as a result skipped certain higher cost
production practices that we have come to expect in a quality boat.

Just because you don’t see a leak doesn’t mean its not there. A
case in point: TPI built my Freedom. It is listed in Ferenc
Mate’s “The Worlds Best SailBoats”, primarilly for Mate’s admiration
for TPI’s knowledge and practice in FRP cored construction. Not one
penetration on my boat was epoxy cored, as is the universal
recomendation. TPI relied on the then miraculous qualities of
polyurethane to eliminate the costly practice of epoxy coring. The
result was a well built, dry boat whose owners went far longer than
the norm before discovering leaks.

However, when leaks were discoverd, fixing them properly proves to
be more laborious than if the penetrations were cored.

I enoy my boat, and would buy another Freedom in a heartbeat. You
just have to keep your eyes open.




— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When
removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant. I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked
and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for.
It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore,
unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel

Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)

I almost entirely with the wisdom expressed in this email. But I find that my boat, a 1987 F30, was built a bit differently. When I removed the headliner to rebed winches, replace deck organizers and rope clutches, I found that everything was bedded in silicone. While I quite agree that silicone should only be used for ports and hatches, and there are those who won’t even permit silicone on their boats, I was pleasantly surprised at the minimal or nonexistent leakage I discovered. Unless some PO replaced whatever TPI used, I have to say that silicone – and TPI – did a pretty good job that lasted almost 20 years. In fact, the only places I’ve discovered any moisture in the core was around the deck fills, where TPI not only used silicone, but didn’t bother to use nuts and bolts, simply screws. Thankfully, the damage was minimal.

Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio

-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of macks011Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 8:49 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Use of silicone sealantThe common industry wisdom is as follows: Silicone sealants are for ports and hatches only. Polysulfides (Life caulk, 3M 101, etc) are for all above and below water bedding operations. Polyurethanes, also known as Screw the Next Guy in a Tube, (sika flex, 3M 4200, 3M5200) are basicaly used for areas that wil never, ever be removed, hull deck jts, drive struts. Freedom liberally used 5200, on their older boats, as their universal bedding material for production and warentee issues and as a result skipped certain higher cost production practices that we have come to expect in a quality boat.Just because you don’t see a leak doesn’t mean its not there. A case in point: TPI built my Freedom. It is listed in Ferenc Mate’s “The Worlds Best SailBoats”, primarilly for Mate’s admiration for TPI’s knowledge and practice in FRP cored construction. Not one penetration on my boat was epoxy cored, as is the universal recomendation. TPI relied on the then miraculous qualities of polyurethane to eliminate the costly practice of epoxy coring. The result was a well built, dry boat whose owners went far longer than the norm before discovering leaks.However, when leaks were discoverd, fixing them properly proves to be more laborious than if the penetrations were cored.I enoy my boat, and would buy another Freedom in a heartbeat. You just have to keep your eyes open.— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:>> Hi,> > I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything except > the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When removing > hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant. I > hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my > esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked and > the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find a > true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have not > leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old. > > I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have not > always been sealed separately.> > An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a boat. > It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for. It > also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore, unless > you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains. > > michel>IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisorThis email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

that’s what I said…if you build an aquarium… (who still has an
aquarium these days…) you need silicone!

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Alan Kusinitz”
<akusinitz@…> wrote:

I believe TPI did use silicone. I find it on my 1982 F-33 wherever
I take
off hardware including pulpits, stanchions etc.

I understand that one place it is needed is if in contact with
acrylic or
lexan .

Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51


The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments is
intended
only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s)
named above
and may be subject to attorney client privilege if so marked. If
the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that you
have received this document in error and that any review,
dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by
e-mail, and delete the original message.



From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
michel.capel
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 3:59 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Use of silicone sealant

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When
removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant. I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked
and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for.
It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore,
unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel


YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Well, I think I agree with you; I found a lot of uncured holes;
although I have a mushroom vent that is properly done with polyester
filler around the edges. The windlass however, shows ugly black core
material along the edges. I believe the windlass is mounted by the
later owners themselves.

Michel



— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “macks011” <macks04@…>
wrote:

The common industry wisdom is as follows: Silicone sealants are
for
ports and hatches only. Polysulfides (Life caulk, 3M 101, etc) are
for all above and below water bedding operations. Polyurethanes,
also known as Screw the Next Guy in a Tube, (sika flex, 3M 4200,
3M5200) are basicaly used for areas that wil never, ever be
removed,
hull deck jts, drive struts. Freedom liberally used 5200, on their
older boats, as their universal bedding material for production
and
warentee issues and as a result skipped certain higher cost
production practices that we have come to expect in a quality boat.

Just because you don’t see a leak doesn’t mean its not there. A
case in point: TPI built my Freedom. It is listed in Ferenc
Mate’s “The Worlds Best SailBoats”, primarilly for Mate’s
admiration
for TPI’s knowledge and practice in FRP cored construction. Not
one
penetration on my boat was epoxy cored, as is the universal
recomendation. TPI relied on the then miraculous qualities of
polyurethane to eliminate the costly practice of epoxy coring. The
result was a well built, dry boat whose owners went far longer
than
the norm before discovering leaks.

However, when leaks were discoverd, fixing them properly proves to
be more laborious than if the penetrations were cored.

I enoy my boat, and would buy another Freedom in a heartbeat. You
just have to keep your eyes open.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything
except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When
removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant.
I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked
and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find
a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have
not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have
not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a
boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for.
It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore,
unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Al, thanks for pointing me towards the deck fillers… I’m going to
chech those out too.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Lorman, Alvin J.”
<ajlorman@…> wrote:

I almost entirely with the wisdom expressed in this email. But I
find
that my boat, a 1987 F30, was built a bit differently. When I
removed
the headliner to rebed winches, replace deck organizers and rope
clutches, I found that everything was bedded in silicone. While I
quite
agree that silicone should only be used for ports and hatches, and
there
are those who won’t even permit silicone on their boats, I was
pleasantly surprised at the minimal or nonexistent leakage I
discovered.
Unless some PO replaced whatever TPI used, I have to say that
silicone
– and TPI – did a pretty good job that lasted almost 20 years.
In
fact, the only places I’ve discovered any moisture in the core was
around the deck fills, where TPI not only used silicone, but didn’t
bother to use nuts and bolts, simply screws. Thankfully, the
damage was
minimal.

Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio

-----Original Message-----
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of macks011
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 8:49 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Use of silicone sealant

The common industry wisdom is as follows: Silicone sealants are
for
ports and hatches only. Polysulfides (Life caulk, 3M 101, etc) are
for all above and below water bedding operations. Polyurethanes,
also known as Screw the Next Guy in a Tube, (sika flex, 3M 4200,
3M5200) are basicaly used for areas that wil never, ever be
removed,
hull deck jts, drive struts. Freedom liberally used 5200, on their
older boats, as their universal bedding material for production
and
warentee issues and as a result skipped certain higher cost
production practices that we have come to expect in a quality boat.

Just because you don’t see a leak doesn’t mean its not there. A
case in point: TPI built my Freedom. It is listed in Ferenc
Mate’s “The Worlds Best SailBoats”, primarilly for Mate’s
admiration
for TPI’s knowledge and practice in FRP cored construction. Not
one
penetration on my boat was epoxy cored, as is the universal
recomendation. TPI relied on the then miraculous qualities of
polyurethane to eliminate the costly practice of epoxy coring. The
result was a well built, dry boat whose owners went far longer
than
the norm before discovering leaks.

However, when leaks were discoverd, fixing them properly proves to
be more laborious than if the penetrations were cored.

I enoy my boat, and would buy another Freedom in a heartbeat. You
just have to keep your eyes open.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything
except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When
removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant.
I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked
and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find
a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have
not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have
not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a
boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for.
It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore,
unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel


YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax
matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer,
Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer
for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under
U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in
promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity,
investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice
was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other
than Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter,
and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers
particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor


This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you have received this email in error please notify the system
manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)

If the core is ugly and black, stick an ice pick in it. If it
penetrates, you could have a hell of a problem depending on depth.
If it’s firm, grind it back a half inch, lay in some modified epoxy
and never look at it again.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

Well, I think I agree with you; I found a lot of uncured holes;
although I have a mushroom vent that is properly done with
polyester
filler around the edges. The windlass however, shows ugly black
core
material along the edges. I believe the windlass is mounted by the
later owners themselves.

Michel

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “macks011” <macks04@>
wrote:

The common industry wisdom is as follows: Silicone sealants are
for
ports and hatches only. Polysulfides (Life caulk, 3M 101, etc)
are
for all above and below water bedding operations. Polyurethanes,
also known as Screw the Next Guy in a Tube, (sika flex, 3M 4200,
3M5200) are basicaly used for areas that wil never, ever be
removed,
hull deck jts, drive struts. Freedom liberally used 5200, on
their
older boats, as their universal bedding material for production
and
warentee issues and as a result skipped certain higher cost
production practices that we have come to expect in a quality
boat.

Just because you don’t see a leak doesn’t mean its not there. A
case in point: TPI built my Freedom. It is listed in Ferenc
Mate’s “The Worlds Best SailBoats”, primarilly for Mate’s
admiration
for TPI’s knowledge and practice in FRP cored construction. Not
one
penetration on my boat was epoxy cored, as is the universal
recomendation. TPI relied on the then miraculous qualities of
polyurethane to eliminate the costly practice of epoxy coring.
The
result was a well built, dry boat whose owners went far longer
than
the norm before discovering leaks.

However, when leaks were discoverd, fixing them properly proves
to
be more laborious than if the penetrations were cored.

I enoy my boat, and would buy another Freedom in a heartbeat.
You
just have to keep your eyes open.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything
except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When
removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone
sealant.
I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower
my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have
leaked
and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often
find
a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have
not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have
not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a
boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good
for.
It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore,
unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel

Posted by Rees Midgley (rmidgley@…>)

On my 36/38 Freedom (1986, hull 39) the manual calls for “caulk” at
the top and surrounding edges of the mast collar. I have used
Silastic at these locations as it is relatively easy to replace each
year. Further, upon lifting the collar, the wedges are exposed and a
substantial space exists between the bottom of the collar and the top
of the wedges. I have also filled that area with Silastic. Is this
a poor choice? Again, I have used it for ease in removal.

  • Rees Midgley


    On Apr 24, 2006, at 8:49 AM, macks011 wrote:

The common industry wisdom is as follows: Silicone sealants are for
ports and hatches only. Polysulfides (Life caulk, 3M 101, etc) are
for all above and below water bedding operations. Polyurethanes,
also known as Screw the Next Guy in a Tube, (sika flex, 3M 4200,
3M5200) are basicaly used for areas that wil never, ever be removed,
hull deck jts, drive struts. Freedom liberally used 5200, on their
older boats, as their universal bedding material for production and
warentee issues and as a result skipped certain higher cost
production practices that we have come to expect in a quality boat.

Just because you don’t see a leak doesn’t mean its not there. A
case in point: TPI built my Freedom. It is listed in Ferenc
Mate’s “The Worlds Best SailBoats”, primarilly for Mate’s admiration
for TPI’s knowledge and practice in FRP cored construction. Not one
penetration on my boat was epoxy cored, as is the universal
recomendation. TPI relied on the then miraculous qualities of
polyurethane to eliminate the costly practice of epoxy coring. The
result was a well built, dry boat whose owners went far longer than
the norm before discovering leaks.

However, when leaks were discoverd, fixing them properly proves to
be more laborious than if the penetrations were cored.

I enoy my boat, and would buy another Freedom in a heartbeat. You
just have to keep your eyes open.




— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When
removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant. I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked
and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for.
It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore,
unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel









Yahoo! Groups Links

Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)

The mast collar requires an extremely flexible caulk due to the
constant movment. I like 3M Marine Silicone for that purpose.
The mast on my 36 is removed every 3 years so I know the product
works at least that long. I lay in a bead around the inner
circumference of the collar and bolt it down a 1/2 turn short of
max. Then a bead stop of 1/4 " poly is inserted into the space
between the mast and the collar and pushed down 1/4". the next day,
the collar nuts are turned down to max and a bead of silicone is
layed in around the mast and tooled to a 1/4" wash.

As you know, the purpose of the collar is to hold in the mast wedge,
weather seal the joint, and provide hardware attachment points. If
your wedges are below the level of the base ring than something has
to fill the space. You might look into cutting a new urethane ring
to the proper profile, or use Spartite. But for now, filling the
space with caulk works.



— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Rees Midgley
<rmidgley@…> wrote:

On my 36/38 Freedom (1986, hull 39) the manual calls for “caulk”
at
the top and surrounding edges of the mast collar. I have used
Silastic at these locations as it is relatively easy to replace
each
year. Further, upon lifting the collar, the wedges are exposed
and a
substantial space exists between the bottom of the collar and the
top
of the wedges. I have also filled that area with Silastic. Is
this
a poor choice? Again, I have used it for ease in removal.

- Rees Midgley

On Apr 24, 2006, at 8:49 AM, macks011 wrote:

The common industry wisdom is as follows: Silicone sealants are for
ports and hatches only. Polysulfides (Life caulk, 3M 101, etc) are
for all above and below water bedding operations. Polyurethanes,
also known as Screw the Next Guy in a Tube, (sika flex, 3M 4200,
3M5200) are basicaly used for areas that wil never, ever be
removed,
hull deck jts, drive struts. Freedom liberally used 5200, on their
older boats, as their universal bedding material for production and
warentee issues and as a result skipped certain higher cost
production practices that we have come to expect in a quality boat.

Just because you don’t see a leak doesn’t mean its not there. A
case in point: TPI built my Freedom. It is listed in Ferenc
Mate’s “The Worlds Best SailBoats”, primarilly for Mate’s
admiration
for TPI’s knowledge and practice in FRP cored construction. Not one
penetration on my boat was epoxy cored, as is the universal
recomendation. TPI relied on the then miraculous qualities of
polyurethane to eliminate the costly practice of epoxy coring. The
result was a well built, dry boat whose owners went far longer than
the norm before discovering leaks.

However, when leaks were discoverd, fixing them properly proves to
be more laborious than if the penetrations were cored.

I enoy my boat, and would buy another Freedom in a heartbeat. You
just have to keep your eyes open.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When
removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone sealant. I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would lower my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have leaked
and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often find
a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points have not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these have
not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a
boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good for.
It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore,
unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel

Yahoo! Groups Links

Posted by katorpus (katorpus@…>)

I’m with 'ya on sealing the mast collar with silicone. Use the
black, and get the “caulk tube” size of the best 3M product. Make
sure there’s no place for it to “run out” at the bottom of what
you’re sealing, then run a couple of thicknesses of GOOD quality
blue masking tape around the mast about 3/8" higher than the collar,
then mask the heck out of the collar and immediate deck area, gun
the stuff in using MORE than you KNOW you’ll need and then tool it
smooth to just BELOW the mast tape using an ICE CUBE. The ice cube
leaves the slickest surface you can imagine, the “slope” away from
the mast keeps water and gunk from puddling. Mine is still sealing
perfectly after nine years.

The ice cube trick works for ANY non-water-soluble caulk, adhesive,
or whatever. You just have to put it ALL down before you start
tooling and be sure not to leave yourself needing to “add more” of
the 5200, “Boat Life”, or silicone, since the moisture from the ice
cube keeps the stuff from sticking to itself.

The “good quality” blue masking tape is important…not all “blue
tape” is long life…some of it is just blue tape. Stay away from
the Walmart stuff and spring for the good stuff, you’ll be glad you
did.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “macks011” <macks04@…>
wrote:

The mast collar requires an extremely flexible caulk due to the
constant movment. I like 3M Marine Silicone for that
purpose.
The mast on my 36 is removed every 3 years so I know the product
works at least that long. I lay in a bead around the inner
circumference of the collar and bolt it down a 1/2 turn short of
max. Then a bead stop of 1/4 " poly is inserted into the space
between the mast and the collar and pushed down 1/4". the next
day,
the collar nuts are turned down to max and a bead of silicone is
layed in around the mast and tooled to a 1/4" wash.

As you know, the purpose of the collar is to hold in the mast
wedge,
weather seal the joint, and provide hardware attachment points. If
your wedges are below the level of the base ring than something
has
to fill the space. You might look into cutting a new urethane ring
to the proper profile, or use Spartite. But for now, filling the
space with caulk works.

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

Silicone is a gasket material that does not adhere all that well to
some surfaces. Usually products like Sikaflex or Boatlife will serve
better in applications where there is movement between the two items
being sealed.

Interesting idea using the ice cube.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “katorpus” <katorpus@…>
wrote:

I’m with 'ya on sealing the mast collar with silicone. Use the
black, and get the “caulk tube” size of the best 3M product. Make
sure there’s no place for it to “run out” at the bottom of what
you’re sealing, then run a couple of thicknesses of GOOD quality
blue masking tape around the mast about 3/8" higher than the
collar,
then mask the heck out of the collar and immediate deck area, gun
the stuff in using MORE than you KNOW you’ll need and then tool it
smooth to just BELOW the mast tape using an ICE CUBE. The ice
cube
leaves the slickest surface you can imagine, the “slope” away from
the mast keeps water and gunk from puddling. Mine is still
sealing
perfectly after nine years.

The ice cube trick works for ANY non-water-soluble caulk,
adhesive,
or whatever. You just have to put it ALL down before you start
tooling and be sure not to leave yourself needing to “add more” of
the 5200, “Boat Life”, or silicone, since the moisture from the
ice
cube keeps the stuff from sticking to itself.

The “good quality” blue masking tape is important…not all “blue
tape” is long life…some of it is just blue tape. Stay away from
the Walmart stuff and spring for the good stuff, you’ll be glad
you
did.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “macks011” <macks04@>
wrote:

The mast collar requires an extremely flexible caulk due to the
constant movment. I like 3M Marine Silicone for that
purpose.
The mast on my 36 is removed every 3 years so I know the
product
works at least that long. I lay in a bead around the inner
circumference of the collar and bolt it down a 1/2 turn short of
max. Then a bead stop of 1/4 " poly is inserted into the space
between the mast and the collar and pushed down 1/4". the next
day,
the collar nuts are turned down to max and a bead of silicone is
layed in around the mast and tooled to a 1/4" wash.

As you know, the purpose of the collar is to hold in the mast
wedge,
weather seal the joint, and provide hardware attachment points.
If
your wedges are below the level of the base ring than something
has
to fill the space. You might look into cutting a new urethane
ring
to the proper profile, or use Spartite. But for now, filling the
space with caulk works.

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

My paint guys ground away the top laminate around several badly
installed pieces of hardware, like the windlass footswitch and the
chain pipe. All rotted balsa was taken out and a new laminate built
up. After the spray painting, nobody will ever know there ever were
holes.


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “macks011” <macks04@…>
wrote:

If the core is ugly and black, stick an ice pick in it. If it
penetrates, you could have a hell of a problem depending on depth.
If it’s firm, grind it back a half inch, lay in some modified
epoxy
and never look at it again.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Well, I think I agree with you; I found a lot of uncured holes;
although I have a mushroom vent that is properly done with
polyester
filler around the edges. The windlass however, shows ugly black
core
material along the edges. I believe the windlass is mounted by
the
later owners themselves.

Michel

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “macks011” <macks04@>
wrote:

The common industry wisdom is as follows: Silicone sealants
are
for
ports and hatches only. Polysulfides (Life caulk, 3M 101, etc)
are
for all above and below water bedding operations.
Polyurethanes,
also known as Screw the Next Guy in a Tube, (sika flex, 3M
4200,
3M5200) are basicaly used for areas that wil never, ever be
removed,
hull deck jts, drive struts. Freedom liberally used 5200, on
their
older boats, as their universal bedding material for
production
and
warentee issues and as a result skipped certain higher cost
production practices that we have come to expect in a quality
boat.

Just because you don’t see a leak doesn’t mean its not there.
A
case in point: TPI built my Freedom. It is listed in Ferenc
Mate’s “The Worlds Best SailBoats”, primarilly for Mate’s
admiration
for TPI’s knowledge and practice in FRP cored construction.
Not
one
penetration on my boat was epoxy cored, as is the universal
recomendation. TPI relied on the then miraculous qualities of
polyurethane to eliminate the costly practice of epoxy coring.
The
result was a well built, dry boat whose owners went far longer
than
the norm before discovering leaks.

However, when leaks were discoverd, fixing them properly
proves
to
be more laborious than if the penetrations were cored.

I enoy my boat, and would buy another Freedom in a heartbeat.
You
just have to keep your eyes open.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Hi,

I’m currently stripping everything (yes, really everything
except
the toe rail) off my deck to have my F44 spraypainted. When
removing
hardware, handrails and hatches, I often find silicone
sealant.
I
hope it was not used by builder TPI, because that would
lower
my
esteem of this company. Almost all siliconed points have
leaked
and
the silicone has lost its adhesion properties. I also often
find
a
true marine sealant, and most of the times, these points
have
not
leaked. Mind you, this boat is 25 yrs old.

I also found leaks along the screwheads. Apparently these
have
not
always been sealed separately.

An advice from my yachtpainters: NEVER use silicone goo on a
boat.
It’s good for an aquarium, but that’s about where it’s good
for.
It
also contaminates the surface so you can’t paint it anymore,
unless
you apply very harsh methods to remove the silicone remains.

michel