water intrusion - serious or not? Help needed

Posted by tournemountain (tournemountain@…>)

We made a bid on a Freedom and have just completed the survey. The
surveyor found, with his moisture high readings in the areas around
the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to 20" in front of the
track. On both sides the moisture extends to the edge of the deck.
Because this does not seem like a simple lift the track and rebed it
sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to have it fixed - to
whatever extent that might be. The seller’s broker says this is
nothing to worry about. The man that has been taking care of the boat
says he does not belive in moisure meters and doubts that it is all
that serious. We see no way this could be accurately estimated and
such estimate amount taken off the purchase price. Who knows what the
marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate $1,000 and then need
many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got things opened up. Things
could get extensive and we do not want to be involved in that. Do you
think this is reasonable? We figure if we do not buy it the next
person will find the same problem when they do their survey and the
seller will probably be faced with the same request.

Thank you, Tourne

Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)

Did your surveyor also sound the deck with a plastic hammer? High moisture readings in the deck should result in a noticeably different sound than tapping a dry section. If there is moisture in the deck to the extent you believe, I suspect it will not be inexpensive to fix it.

As most Freedoms don’t have genoas, I couldn’t help but wonder what model you’re looking at.

Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio

-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tournemountainSent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:06 PMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] water intrusion - serious or not? Help neededWe made a bid on a Freedom and have just completed the survey. The surveyor found, with his moisture high readings in the areas around the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to 20" in front of the track. On both sides the moisture extends to the edge of the deck. Because this does not seem like a simple lift the track and rebed it sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to have it fixed - to whatever extent that might be. The seller’s broker says this is nothing to worry about. The man that has been taking care of the boat says he does not belive in moisure meters and doubts that it is all that serious. We see no way this could be accurately estimated and such estimate amount taken off the purchase price. Who knows what the marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate $1,000 and then need many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got things opened up. Things could get extensive and we do not want to be involved in that. Do you think this is reasonable? We figure if we do not buy it the next person will find the same problem when they do their survey and the seller will probably be faced with the same request.Thank you, Tourne
=00IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisorThis email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

Were you present for the survey? Was the suspect area percussion
tested? Were the genoa tracks installed by an owner or by the
factory? If the tracks were improperly installed in a cored area
you have reason to be concerned.

It is hard to estimate the cost for that kind of repair.You will
want your surveyor to inspect the work as the repairs progress. You
will need to discuss with your surveyor what kind of repair is
acceptable. The owner will probably want an inexpensive repair like
drilling a series of holes, injecting epoxy, and redoing the nonskid
where the holes have been drilled. I’m not sure if that method is OK
in a stressed area. Another method is to remove the top laminate,
recore, and reinstall or replace the top laminate. I’ve done a small
area like that but never a large area like you’re describing. I have
seen moisture meters lead people astray. Is the boat located
somewhere where it’s been fairly dry? I’ve seen totally different
moisture meter readings from morning to afternoon. Nonskid will
retain morning dew differently than slick gelcoat.


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tournemountain”
<tournemountain@…> wrote:

We made a bid on a Freedom and have just completed the survey. The
surveyor found, with his moisture high readings in the areas
around
the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to 20" in front of the
track. On both sides the moisture extends to the edge of the deck.
Because this does not seem like a simple lift the track and rebed
it
sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to have it fixed - to
whatever extent that might be. The seller’s broker says this is
nothing to worry about. The man that has been taking care of the
boat
says he does not belive in moisure meters and doubts that it is
all
that serious. We see no way this could be accurately estimated and
such estimate amount taken off the purchase price. Who knows what
the
marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate $1,000 and then need
many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got things opened up.
Things
could get extensive and we do not want to be involved in that. Do
you
think this is reasonable? We figure if we do not buy it the next
person will find the same problem when they do their survey and
the
seller will probably be faced with the same request.

Thank you, Tourne

Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)

I agree with Dave’s observations of the differences in moisture
readings. Also, read this:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/buyingaboat.htm

There is an other method of checking and repairing: from below. If
you drill a hole in the suspect area from below and check, you can
then drill a next hole, until you find dry balsa. Then you can
remove, patch by patch, the underside of the laminate, epoxy in
patches of foam and cover with the original laminate, or a new
layout. Of course, you will have to work upside down.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

Were you present for the survey? Was the suspect area percussion
tested? Were the genoa tracks installed by an owner or by the
factory? If the tracks were improperly installed in a cored area
you have reason to be concerned.

It is hard to estimate the cost for that kind of repair.You will
want your surveyor to inspect the work as the repairs progress.
You
will need to discuss with your surveyor what kind of repair is
acceptable. The owner will probably want an inexpensive repair
like
drilling a series of holes, injecting epoxy, and redoing the
nonskid
where the holes have been drilled. I’m not sure if that method is
OK
in a stressed area. Another method is to remove the top laminate,
recore, and reinstall or replace the top laminate. I’ve done a
small
area like that but never a large area like you’re describing. I
have
seen moisture meters lead people astray. Is the boat located
somewhere where it’s been fairly dry? I’ve seen totally different
moisture meter readings from morning to afternoon. Nonskid will
retain morning dew differently than slick gelcoat.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tournemountain”
<tournemountain@> wrote:

We made a bid on a Freedom and have just completed the survey.
The
surveyor found, with his moisture high readings in the areas
around
the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to 20" in front of
the
track. On both sides the moisture extends to the edge of the
deck.
Because this does not seem like a simple lift the track and
rebed
it
sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to have it fixed -
to
whatever extent that might be. The seller’s broker says this is
nothing to worry about. The man that has been taking care of the
boat
says he does not belive in moisure meters and doubts that it is
all
that serious. We see no way this could be accurately estimated
and
such estimate amount taken off the purchase price. Who knows
what
the
marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate $1,000 and then
need
many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got things opened up.
Things
could get extensive and we do not want to be involved in that.
Do
you
think this is reasonable? We figure if we do not buy it the next
person will find the same problem when they do their survey and
the
seller will probably be faced with the same request.

Thank you, Tourne

Posted by tournemountain (tournemountain@…>)

What a terrific site, Michel. Thank you for sending it on. And Dave,
thank you too for your comments. We are reading all we can as we
consider this question. Evelyn

Posted by William A. Cormack (wacormack@…>)

The “from below” method is valid but does entail working upside down
(against gravity). West Brothers makes a vacuum bag kit you should use to
make sure your don’t put voids in if you do it that way. Working around
furniture and bulkheads also makes this a tough assignment.

Bill


William A. Cormack, CPA


----- Original Message -----
From: “Michel Capel” <mike_c_f35ck@…>
To: <freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02/09/2006 7:35 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: water intrusion - serious or not? Help
needed

\

I agree with Dave’s observations of the differences in moisture
readings. Also, read this:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/buyingaboat.htm

There is an other method of checking and repairing: from below. If
you drill a hole in the suspect area from below and check, you can
then drill a next hole, until you find dry balsa. Then you can
remove, patch by patch, the underside of the laminate, epoxy in
patches of foam and cover with the original laminate, or a new
layout. Of course, you will have to work upside down.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

Were you present for the survey? Was the suspect area percussion
tested? Were the genoa tracks installed by an owner or by the
factory? If the tracks were improperly installed in a cored area
you have reason to be concerned.

It is hard to estimate the cost for that kind of repair.You will
want your surveyor to inspect the work as the repairs progress.
You
will need to discuss with your surveyor what kind of repair is
acceptable. The owner will probably want an inexpensive repair
like
drilling a series of holes, injecting epoxy, and redoing the
nonskid
where the holes have been drilled. I’m not sure if that method is
OK
in a stressed area. Another method is to remove the top laminate,
recore, and reinstall or replace the top laminate. I’ve done a
small
area like that but never a large area like you’re describing. I
have
seen moisture meters lead people astray. Is the boat located
somewhere where it’s been fairly dry? I’ve seen totally different
moisture meter readings from morning to afternoon. Nonskid will
retain morning dew differently than slick gelcoat.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tournemountain”
<tournemountain@> wrote:

We made a bid on a Freedom and have just completed the survey.
The
surveyor found, with his moisture high readings in the areas
around
the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to 20" in front of
the
track. On both sides the moisture extends to the edge of the
deck.
Because this does not seem like a simple lift the track and
rebed
it
sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to have it fixed -
to
whatever extent that might be. The seller’s broker says this is
nothing to worry about. The man that has been taking care of the
boat
says he does not belive in moisure meters and doubts that it is
all
that serious. We see no way this could be accurately estimated
and
such estimate amount taken off the purchase price. Who knows
what
the
marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate $1,000 and then
need
many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got things opened up.
Things
could get extensive and we do not want to be involved in that.
Do
you
think this is reasonable? We figure if we do not buy it the next
person will find the same problem when they do their survey and
the
seller will probably be faced with the same request.

Thank you, Tourne

Yahoo! Groups Links

Posted by Alfred Roberts (lab2doodle@…>)
I would have it fixed before you buy the boat. Your buying a new boat to you and I’m sure you want to enjoy this boat and not worry about the potential for a rotted or wet core. If the seller refuses to make repairs I’d look for another boat. Your not talking about a cable that need rerplacing or a minor problem but something that could be major.tournemountain <tournemountain@…> wrote: We made a bid on a Freedom and have just completed the survey. The surveyor found, with his moisture high readings in the areas around the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to 20" in front of the track. On both sides the moisture extends to the edge of the deck. Because this does not seem like a simple lift the track and rebed it sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to have it fixed - to whatever extent that
might be. The seller’s broker says this is nothing to worry about. The man that has been taking care of the boat says he does not belive in moisure meters and doubts that it is all that serious. We see no way this could be accurately estimated and such estimate amount taken off the purchase price. Who knows what the marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate $1,000 and then need many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got things opened up. Things could get extensive and we do not want to be involved in that. Do you think this is reasonable? We figure if we do not buy it the next person will find the same problem when they do their survey and the seller will probably be faced with the same request.Thank you, Tourne
Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)

It’s true that this could be a major thing, and therefore I would
rather repair it myself, and see the costs reflected in a reduction
of the purchase price. If a seller has to do repairs just to satisfy
a buyer, he will try and put as little money and effort in it as he
can get away with.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Alfred Roberts
<lab2doodle@…> wrote:

I would have it fixed before you buy the boat. Your buying a new
boat to you and I’m sure you want to enjoy this boat and not worry
about the potential for a rotted or wet core. If the seller refuses
to make repairs I’d look for another boat. Your not talking about a
cable that need rerplacing or a minor problem but something that
could be major.

tournemountain <tournemountain@…> wrote: We made a bid on a
Freedom and have just completed the survey. The
surveyor found, with his moisture high readings in the areas
around
the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to 20" in front of the
track. On both sides the moisture extends to the edge of the deck.
Because this does not seem like a simple lift the track and rebed
it
sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to have it fixed - to
whatever extent that might be. The seller’s broker says this is
nothing to worry about. The man that has been taking care of the
boat
says he does not belive in moisure meters and doubts that it is
all
that serious. We see no way this could be accurately estimated and
such estimate amount taken off the purchase price. Who knows what
the
marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate $1,000 and then need
many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got things opened up.
Things
could get extensive and we do not want to be involved in that. Do
you
think this is reasonable? We figure if we do not buy it the next
person will find the same problem when they do their survey and
the
seller will probably be faced with the same request.

Thank you, Tourne

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Posted by mike cunningham (seychellois_lib@…>)

I have repaired several wet areas in the deck. These
were caused by the classic leakage around inadequately
sealed hardware penetrations.

If you have an existing penetration(s) in the outside
laminate as you would in the case of the genoa track
problem, you can use these holes to make your job a
little easier.

When I detect wet deck core I remove the offending
hardware and begin drilling small “exploration” holes
from the underside of the deck. I plot out the damp
area and then attack it by drilling holes that are
large enough to permit me to get a cleaning tool into
the void between laminates. Once I have all the damp
core gouged out I duck tape the “working” holes on the
underside of the deck and use the hardware penetration
holes above to fill the void with epoxy. I’ll use
syringes for efficiency. If you use a fairly thin
epoxy mix the stuff flows into the void and fills it
pretty effectively. If there are a few small voids
left behind, so what? As long as the new penetration
hole you drill is through solid epoxy and is isolated
from balsa a few small voids aren’t going to make much
difference.

This technique keeps the epoxy mess out of the cabin,
just have to set up some drop cloths to catch the
drilling and balsa debris.

This approach is obviously limited to smaller areas,
maybe a couple square feet max, but I have never found
aything very big. If you have really big expanses of
wet core I think you might want to be looking at
another Freedom. There are some folks out there
(marine businesses included) that don’t have a clue
and have drilled holes all over the place without
taking proper steps to protect the core. In these
cases you could have a real mess. BTW some of the
holes Freedom itself drilled when the boats were built
weren’t very well protected, I’ve always found that
amazing.

— “William A. Cormack” <wacormack@…> wrote:

The “from below” method is valid but does entail
working upside down
(against gravity). West Brothers makes a vacuum bag
kit you should use to
make sure your don’t put voids in if you do it that
way. Working around
furniture and bulkheads also makes this a tough
assignment.

Bill


William A. Cormack, CPA

----- Original Message -----
From: “Michel Capel” <mike_c_f35ck@…>
To: <freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02/09/2006 7:35 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: water intrusion -
serious or not? Help
needed

I agree with Dave’s observations of the differences
in moisture
readings. Also, read this:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/buyingaboat.htm

There is an other method of checking and
repairing: from below. If
you drill a hole in the suspect area from below
and check, you can
then drill a next hole, until you find dry balsa.
Then you can
remove, patch by patch, the underside of the
laminate, epoxy in
patches of foam and cover with the original
laminate, or a new
layout. Of course, you will have to work upside
down.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“Dave_Benjamin”
<dave_benjamin@…> wrote:

Were you present for the survey? Was the suspect
area percussion
tested? Were the genoa tracks installed by an
owner or by the
factory? If the tracks were improperly installed
in a cored area
you have reason to be concerned.

It is hard to estimate the cost for that kind of
repair.You will
want your surveyor to inspect the work as the
repairs progress.
You
will need to discuss with your surveyor what kind
of repair is
acceptable. The owner will probably want an
inexpensive repair
like
drilling a series of holes, injecting epoxy, and
redoing the
nonskid
where the holes have been drilled. I’m not sure
if that method is
OK
in a stressed area. Another method is to remove
the top laminate,
recore, and reinstall or replace the top
laminate. I’ve done a
small
area like that but never a large area like you’re
describing. I
have
seen moisture meters lead people astray. Is the
boat located
somewhere where it’s been fairly dry? I’ve seen
totally different
moisture meter readings from morning to
afternoon. Nonskid will
retain morning dew differently than slick
gelcoat.

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“tournemountain”
<tournemountain@> wrote:

We made a bid on a Freedom and have just
completed the survey.
The
surveyor found, with his moisture high readings
in the areas
around
the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to
20" in front of
the
track. On both sides the moisture extends to
the edge of the
deck.
Because this does not seem like a simple lift
the track and
rebed
it
sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to
have it fixed -
to
whatever extent that might be. The seller’s
broker says this is
nothing to worry about. The man that has been
taking care of the
boat
says he does not belive in moisure meters and
doubts that it is
all
that serious. We see no way this could be
accurately estimated
and
such estimate amount taken off the purchase
price. Who knows
what
the
marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate
$1,000 and then
need
many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got
things opened up.
Things
could get extensive and we do not want to be
involved in that.
Do
you
think this is reasonable? We figure if we do
not buy it the next
person will find the same problem when they do
their survey and
the
seller will probably be faced with the same
request.

Thank you, Tourne

Yahoo! Groups Links


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Posted by goldbdan (goldbdan@…>)

Tourne:

Having a wet core definitely is a problem. That being said, my view
is that these things often get overblown.

First, moisture meters notoriously are inaccurate. Frankly, none of
them are “accurate.” Their usefulness comes in using them for
comparative purposes only. Each meter will read a dry core
differently. So, the user needs to know how that particular meter
reads a dry core, and from there, you can ascertain whether the
subject core is reading high based on that meter’s “normal.” And
even then, I’m not sure I would believe the meter wholeheartedly.
Frankly, the only way to know for sure is to take a few core samples
and see if the coring comes out wet. It really is not that big of a
deal to take a core sample, assuming there is access from the inside
(taking the core from the outside is no more difficult, but closing
the hole in a cosmetically acceptable way could be more tricky).

Second, all cores have some moisture. All. Anyone telling you
something different either is thinking of a brand new boat, or is
just plain wrong. The key is to make sure that water no longer is
getting in to the core, that whatever moisture exists now is not
spreading (via capillary action or otherwise), and that the core has
not begun to rot (not necessarily so easy to ascertain).

In terms of who pays, I agree with a previous poster that you as the
buyer would prefer a price adjustment and then you do the work.
That’s the only way you’ll know if the work is done properly.

All this being said, if you really believe there are large sections
of the deck or hull that have meaningful moisture saturation, then
take a pass on the boat. There are plenty of them out there. Just
make sure you’re not hitting the panic button just become some
sureveyor states, “hey, my moisture meter reads 17%, which means the
hull/deck is wet.” Get more of an answer than that, as surveyors
are notorious for proclaiming that some problem is huge. Remember,
all boats have problems, they all need work or could use
improvement, and everything can be fixed. The question simply is
how much will it cost.

Good luck,

DG


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tournemountain”
<tournemountain@…> wrote:

We made a bid on a Freedom and have just completed the survey. The
surveyor found, with his moisture high readings in the areas
around
the genoa tracks. On one side that extended to 20" in front of the
track. On both sides the moisture extends to the edge of the deck.
Because this does not seem like a simple lift the track and rebed
it
sort of thing, we plan on asking the seller to have it fixed - to
whatever extent that might be. The seller’s broker says this is
nothing to worry about. The man that has been taking care of the
boat
says he does not belive in moisure meters and doubts that it is
all
that serious. We see no way this could be accurately estimated and
such estimate amount taken off the purchase price. Who knows what
the
marine fixit guy will find. He might estimate $1,000 and then need
many days and $3,000 to fix it once he got things opened up.
Things
could get extensive and we do not want to be involved in that. Do
you
think this is reasonable? We figure if we do not buy it the next
person will find the same problem when they do their survey and
the
seller will probably be faced with the same request.

Thank you, Tourne