Posted by Alan (akusinitz@…>)
Now that my F-33 is finally back in salt water I was thinking that when
I winterize (yes I know, way too soon to be thinking this way:-)rather
than just running antifreeze through the raw water cooling portion of
my Yanmar maybe it would help to first run a gallon of vinegar or some
special solution to dissolve deposits in the exhaust elbow.
Any thoughts on whether something like this would be worthwhile?
Thanks
Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51 SEAPR
Posted by Al Lorman (ajl@…>)
Alan:
I
don’t think the vinegar would stay in the exhaust elbow long enough to dissolve
anything. You can clean out the raw water side of the heat exchanger if you let
the vinegar sit in there overnight. If – big if – you can readily
remove the exhaust elbow, you could soak it in vinegar or radiator cleaner.
Al
Lorman
From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Alan
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:24 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Winterizing using something to flush salt
deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?
\
Now that my F-33 is finally back in salt water
I was thinking that when
I winterize (yes I know, way too soon to be thinking this way:-)rather
than just running antifreeze through the raw water cooling portion of
my Yanmar maybe it would help to first run a gallon of vinegar or some
special solution to dissolve deposits in the exhaust elbow.
Any thoughts on whether something like this would be worthwhile?
Thanks
Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51 SEAPR
\
Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)
It seems like to me that you could do the following:
Introduce a “radiator flushout fitting” into the raw water intake
line between the inlet thru-hull and the raw water pump. I haven’t
SEEN one of these that was made out of anything but plastic, so you
probably WOULDN’T want to leave it in there permanently (lest it fail
and sink the boat), but you could possibly “tee” the line with a
marine-quality tee fitting and and put a seaworthy shutoff valve
between a female garden hose fitting and the raw water line and
accomplish the same thing (plugging it when not in use as a backup
against inadvertent opening of that valve).
Close the raw water inlet seacock and hook up a 3/4" garden hose
to the city water supply and the flushout fitting.
Open the valve and turn on the city water full blast while
(soonly) starting the engine. Do not turn on the water without
immediately starting the engine, as the water will bypass the raw
water impeller, and you would likely fill up the muffler, the exhaust
hose, and (possibly) the engine cylinders (from backflow through the
mixing elbow). Likewise, don’t shut the engine OFF with the water
still flowing. A shutoff valve or a “helper” will allow you to
prevent this from happening.
Run the engine for a while (maybe a GOOD while) with the fresh
water (only) providing water flow to the “seawater side” of the
system. Obviously, the marina water flow rate needs to be sufficient
to the needs of the engine water flow requirements, so you don’t want
to jack the RPM’s up too high if this is a potential problem (many
marinas run very small lines “out the dock”, and pulling suction on
them will only cause the introduction of air into the water stream if
backflow preventers are installed on the dockside water spigots.) For
the reasons expressed in Item #3, you also don’t want the city-water
flow rate to be MORE than what the engine is drawing from the hose at
a given RPM (your garden hose should feel somewhat “soft”, rather
than pressurized while the engine is running).
This will (eventually) dissolve the salt deposits, leaving your
system reasonably “clean” without disassembly of anything. Note that
it won’t do a thing for “mineral deposits”…not in any kind of
reasonable time frame anyway.
You could easily follow this up by plumbing a 5 gallon bucket into
the flushout fitting (with a plastic nipple and a couple of feet of
garden hose) and fill the bucket with straight “pickling” vinegar (5
percent acetic acid).
This costs me about $3 for 1.32 gallons. If you run the engine just
long enough before adding the vinegar to the bucket, you’ll push most
of the water out of the raw water system, muffler, and exhaust hose
and then you’ll be pumping straight vinegar through the system. Once
you’ve added vinegar, run the engine ONLY long enough to get the
vinegar flowing through the mixing elbow, then shut it off, let it
sit a while, and repeat (over and over) until your vinegar is all
gone, then flush again with city water. Check the condition of your
pencil zincs afterwards.
Most mixing elbow problems are caused by “carbonization” which occurs
(mostly) at low RPM and at shutdown. Always run the engine at a high
(within redline) RPM for a couple of minutes immediately before
pulling the kill-switch in order to minimize this carbon buildup.
If that all seems too slow or tame, consider the following (but I
DON’T recommend it).
THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A SUGGESTION, BUT REFLECTS MY (ONE-TIME)
EXPERIENCE WHICH COULD HAVE TURNED OUT BADLY!!
I have (successfully) cleaned my system out with a LOT more drastic
approach by removing the inlet hose from the seacock and immersing it
in a bucket filled with water with “some” muriatic acid mixed in.
I would NOT recommend doing this for the following reasons…
The EPA would certainly NOT approve, and it’s probably nine kinds
of illegal in all 50 states and federal waters.
You CANNOT do this in the marina, as the (very) corrosive fumes
would blow downwind from the exhaust outlet, making your marina
neighbors extremely unhappy…and possibly injured by the fumes. If
your bottom paint is “red” (high copper), expect it to acquire an
interesting green patina anywhere it is exposed above the waterline
near the exhaust outlet.
If your mixing elbow (or anything else in the system) is “near
failing”…it WILL fail, perhaps at an inopportune time (while away
from your marina, for instance…see item #2).
If #3 occurs, you may be left with an “active” (read that bubbling
and expanding) water/acid mix trapped in your raw water system, which
could result in significant damage before you are able to get it out.
(Picture your seawater strainer exploding, for instance…or the heat
exchanger) The same thing could result if the system is SO clogged
with deposits that the acid mixture only serves to “knock them loose”
and push them together to where the flow is obstructed.
Any “pencil zincs” in your engine or heat exchanger will be
immediately destroyed. If they are on the “upstream side” of the heat
exchanger, any remaining pieces will be clogging the heat exchanger.
If there is anything in your raw water system made of the “wrong
kind” of rubber (nitrile, for instance), it will be ruined by the
acid. My raw water impeller was unaffected, but others might not be.
Ditto for any exposed wire reinforcement in your (rubber) exhaust
hose.
REMEMBER… I TOLD YOU NOT TO DO THIS!!!
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Al Lorman” <ajl@…>
wrote:
Alan:
I don’t think the vinegar would stay in the exhaust elbow long
enough to
dissolve anything. You can clean out the raw water side of the heat
exchanger if you let the vinegar sit in there overnight. If - big
if - you
can readily remove the exhaust elbow, you could soak it in vinegar
or
radiator cleaner.Al Lorman
From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:24 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Winterizing using something to flush
salt
deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?Now that my F-33 is finally back in salt water I was thinking that
when
I winterize (yes I know, way too soon to be thinking this way:-)
rather
than just running antifreeze through the raw water cooling portion
of
my Yanmar maybe it would help to first run a gallon of vinegar or
some
special solution to dissolve deposits in the exhaust elbow.
Any thoughts on whether something like this would be worthwhile?
Thanks
Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51 SEAPR
Posted by amarsib@… (amarsib@…)
Can one do this to flush out smelly sanitation hose?From: “katorpus” <jrb@…>Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:33:05 -0000To: <FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Winterizing using something to flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow? It seems like to me that you could do the following: 1) Introduce a “radiator flushout fitting” into the raw water intake line between the inlet thru-hull and the raw water pump. I haven’t SEEN one of these that was made out of anything but plastic, so you probably WOULDN’T want to leave it in there permanently (lest it fail and sink the boat), but you could possibly “tee” the line with a marine-quality tee fitting and and put a seaworthy shutoff valve between a female garden hose fitting and the raw water line and accomplish the same thing (plugging it when not in use as a backup against inadvertent opening of that valve). 2) Close the raw water inlet seacock and hook up a 3/4" garden hose to the city water supply and the flushout fitting. 3) Open the valve and turn on the city water full blast while (soonly) starting the engine. Do not turn on the water without immediately starting the engine, as the water will bypass the raw water impeller, and you would likely fill up the muffler, the exhaust hose, and (possibly) the engine cylinders (from backflow through the mixing elbow). Likewise, don’t shut the engine OFF with the water still flowing. A shutoff valve or a “helper” will allow you to prevent this from happening. 4) Run the engine for a while (maybe a GOOD while) with the fresh water (only) providing water flow to the “seawater side” of the system. Obviously, the marina water flow rate needs to be sufficient to the needs of the engine water flow requirements, so you don’t want to jack the RPM’s up too high if this is a potential problem (many marinas run very small lines “out the dock”, and pulling suction on them will only cause the introduction of air into the water stream if backflow preventers are installed on the dockside water spigots.) For the reasons expressed in Item #3, you also don’t want the city-water flow rate to be MORE than what the engine is drawing from the hose at a given RPM (your garden hose should feel somewhat “soft”, rather than pressurized while the engine is running). This will (eventually) dissolve the salt deposits, leaving your system reasonably “clean” without disassembly of anything. Note that it won’t do a thing for “mineral deposits”…not in any kind of reasonable time frame anyway. You could easily follow this up by plumbing a 5 gallon bucket into the flushout fitting (with a plastic nipple and a couple of feet of garden hose) and fill the bucket with straight “pickling” vinegar (5 percent acetic acid). This costs me about $3 for 1.32 gallons. If you run the engine just long enough before adding the vinegar to the bucket, you’ll push most of the water out of the raw water system, muffler, and exhaust hose and then you’ll be pumping straight vinegar through the system. Once you’ve added vinegar, run the engine ONLY long enough to get the vinegar flowing through the mixing elbow, then shut it off, let it sit a while, and repeat (over and over) until your vinegar is all gone, then flush again with city water. Check the condition of your pencil zincs afterwards. Most mixing elbow problems are caused by “carbonization” which occurs (mostly) at low RPM and at shutdown. Always run the engine at a high (within redline) RPM for a couple of minutes immediately before pulling the kill-switch in order to minimize this carbon buildup. If that all seems too slow or tame, consider the following (but I DON’T recommend it). THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A SUGGESTION, BUT REFLECTS MY (ONE-TIME) EXPERIENCE WHICH COULD HAVE TURNED OUT BADLY!! I have (successfully) cleaned my system out with a LOT more drastic approach by removing the inlet hose from the seacock and immersing it in a bucket filled with water with “some” muriatic acid mixed in. I would NOT recommend doing this for the following reasons… 1) The EPA would certainly NOT approve, and it’s probably nine kinds of illegal in all 50 states and federal waters. 2) You CANNOT do this in the marina, as the (very) corrosive fumes would blow downwind from the exhaust outlet, making your marina neighbors extremely unhappy…and possibly injured by the fumes. If your bottom paint is “red” (high copper), expect it to acquire an interesting green patina anywhere it is exposed above the waterline near the exhaust outlet. 3) If your mixing elbow (or anything else in the system) is “near failing”…it WILL fail, perhaps at an inopportune time (while away from your marina, for instance…see item #2). 4) If #3 occurs, you may be left with an “active” (read that bubbling and expanding) water/acid mix trapped in your raw water system, which could result in significant damage before you are able to get it out. (Picture your seawater strainer exploding, for instance…or the heat exchanger) The same thing could result if the system is SO clogged with deposits that the acid mixture only serves to “knock them loose” and push them together to where the flow is obstructed. 5) Any “pencil zincs” in your engine or heat exchanger will be immediately destroyed. If they are on the “upstream side” of the heat exchanger, any remaining pieces will be clogging the heat exchanger. 6) If there is anything in your raw water system made of the “wrong kind” of rubber (nitrile, for instance), it will be ruined by the acid. My raw water impeller was unaffected, but others might not be. Ditto for any exposed wire reinforcement in your (rubber) exhaust hose. REMEMBER… I TOLD YOU NOT TO DO THIS!!! — In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Al Lorman” <ajl@…> wrote: > > Alan: > > > > I don’t think the vinegar would stay in the exhaust elbow long enough to > dissolve anything. You can clean out the raw water side of the heat > exchanger if you let the vinegar sit in there overnight. If - big if - you > can readily remove the exhaust elbow, you could soak it in vinegar or > radiator cleaner. > > > > Al Lorman > > > > From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:24 PM > To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Winterizing using something to flush salt > deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow? > > > > Now that my F-33 is finally back in salt water I was thinking that when > I winterize (yes I know, way too soon to be thinking this way:-) rather > than just running antifreeze through the raw water cooling portion of > my Yanmar maybe it would help to first run a gallon of vinegar or some > special solution to dissolve deposits in the exhaust elbow. > Any thoughts on whether something like this would be worthwhile? > Thanks > Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51 SEAPR >
Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)
Here’s what I do with MY head (It’s a Lavac, so the process is a
little different than others).
I use the boat anywhere from 3 to 5 days at a time. If the head is
used at all, I do the following before locking up the boat:
This all assumes that you have NOT allowed gunk to build up in your
sanitation hoses to the point at which they don’t drain easily.
Seawater reacts with the sewage to create a “concrete-like” plaque
buildup on the inside of the hoses.
If your hoses are “clean” to begin with, then nothing will build up
on them since a) there’s no sewage left in the hose and b) the water
which remains in the hose is fresh water.
Do this religiously, and you’ll never HAVE a problem with your hoses.
If you’ve ever had to remove them and either replace them or beat the
heck out of them on the dock to get rid of the gunk inside, you’ll
agree with me that it is worth the time & (minimal) expense of doing
this to avoid repeating that job.
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, amarsib@… wrote:
Can one do this to flush out smelly sanitation hose?
-----Original Message-----
From: “katorpus” <jrb@…>Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:33:05
To: <FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Winterizing using something to
flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?It seems like to me that you could do the following:
Introduce a “radiator flushout fitting” into the raw water
intake
line between the inlet thru-hull and the raw water pump. I haven’t
SEEN one of these that was made out of anything but plastic, so you
probably WOULDN’T want to leave it in there permanently (lest it
fail
and sink the boat), but you could possibly “tee” the line with a
marine-quality tee fitting and and put a seaworthy shutoff valve
between a female garden hose fitting and the raw water line and
accomplish the same thing (plugging it when not in use as a backup
against inadvertent opening of that valve).Close the raw water inlet seacock and hook up a 3/4" garden hose
to the city water supply and the flushout fitting.Open the valve and turn on the city water full blast while
(soonly) starting the engine. Do not turn on the water without
immediately starting the engine, as the water will bypass the raw
water impeller, and you would likely fill up the muffler, the
exhaust
hose, and (possibly) the engine cylinders (from backflow through
the
mixing elbow). Likewise, don’t shut the engine OFF with the water
still flowing. A shutoff valve or a “helper” will allow you to
prevent this from happening.Run the engine for a while (maybe a GOOD while) with the fresh
water (only) providing water flow to the “seawater side” of the
system. Obviously, the marina water flow rate needs to be
sufficient
to the needs of the engine water flow requirements, so you don’t
want
to jack the RPM’s up too high if this is a potential problem (many
marinas run very small lines “out the dock”, and pulling suction on
them will only cause the introduction of air into the water stream
if
backflow preventers are installed on the dockside water spigots.)
For
the reasons expressed in Item #3, you also don’t want the city-
water
flow rate to be MORE than what the engine is drawing from the hose
at
a given RPM (your garden hose should feel somewhat “soft”, rather
than pressurized while the engine is running).This will (eventually) dissolve the salt deposits, leaving your
system reasonably “clean” without disassembly of anything. Note
that
it won’t do a thing for “mineral deposits”…not in any kind of
reasonable time frame anyway.You could easily follow this up by plumbing a 5 gallon bucket into
the flushout fitting (with a plastic nipple and a couple of feet of
garden hose) and fill the bucket with straight “pickling” vinegar
(5
percent acetic acid).This costs me about $3 for 1.32 gallons. If you run the engine just
long enough before adding the vinegar to the bucket, you’ll push
most
of the water out of the raw water system, muffler, and exhaust hose
and then you’ll be pumping straight vinegar through the system.
Once
you’ve added vinegar, run the engine ONLY long enough to get the
vinegar flowing through the mixing elbow, then shut it off, let it
sit a while, and repeat (over and over) until your vinegar is all
gone, then flush again with city water. Check the condition of your
pencil zincs afterwards.
Posted by Melissa (kalicinm@…>)
Yes, In fact, it is suggested to flush a cup of vinigar through your san hose weekly or monthly to prevent the salt water scum buildup and keep it all smelling nicely (instead of the harsh acid treatments less frequently). I know a livaboard that dumps a splash in everytime he flushes and he claims that it keeps all san smells at bay!!! It’s environmently friendly as well!!!
Melissa
s/v Acedia F38
“Pollution is a silent form of violence” -Ralph Nader
“Plastics, like diamonds, are forever!” -The Earth Resource Foundation (for more information on the adverse effects of plastics on human health and the environment, please visit–http://www.earthresource.org/campaigns/capp/capp-overview.html)
~ Please consider the environment prior to printing documents and offset carbon footprint,
give electronics a break by shutting them down and unplugging when not in use ~
----- Original Message ----From: “amarsib@…” <amarsib@…>To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comSent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 3:45:29 PMSubject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Winterizing using something to flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?
Can one do this to flush out smelly sanitation hose?
From: “katorpus” <jrb@…>Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:33:05 -0000To: <FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Winterizing using something to flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?
It seems like to me that you could do the following:1) Introduce a “radiator flushout fitting” into the raw water intake line between the inlet thru-hull and the raw water pump. I haven’t SEEN one of these that was made out of anything but plastic, so you probably WOULDN’T want to leave it in there permanently (lest it fail and sink the boat), but you could possibly “tee” the line with a marine-quality tee fitting and and put a seaworthy shutoff valve between a female garden hose fitting and the raw water line and accomplish the same thing (plugging it when not in use as a backup against inadvertent opening of that valve).2) Close the raw water inlet seacock and hook up a 3/4" garden hose to the city water supply and the flushout fitting.3) Open the valve and turn on the city water full blast while (soonly) starting the engine. Do not turn on the water without immediately starting the
engine, as the water will bypass the raw water impeller, and you would likely fill up the muffler, the exhaust hose, and (possibly) the engine cylinders (from backflow through the mixing elbow). Likewise, don’t shut the engine OFF with the water still flowing. A shutoff valve or a “helper” will allow you to prevent this from happening.4) Run the engine for a while (maybe a GOOD while) with the fresh water (only) providing water flow to the “seawater side” of the system. Obviously, the marina water flow rate needs to be sufficient to the needs of the engine water flow requirements, so you don’t want to jack the RPM’s up too high if this is a potential problem (many marinas run very small lines “out the dock”, and pulling suction on them will only cause the introduction of air into the water stream if backflow preventers are installed on the dockside water spigots.) For the reasons expressed in
Item #3, you also don’t want the city-water flow rate to be MORE than what the engine is drawing from the hose at a given RPM (your garden hose should feel somewhat “soft”, rather than pressurized while the engine is running).This will (eventually) dissolve the salt deposits, leaving your system reasonably “clean” without disassembly of anything. Note that it won’t do a thing for “mineral deposits”… not in any kind of reasonable time frame anyway.You could easily follow this up by plumbing a 5 gallon bucket into the flushout fitting (with a plastic nipple and a couple of feet of garden hose) and fill the bucket with straight “pickling” vinegar (5 percent acetic acid).This costs me about $3 for 1.32 gallons. If you run the engine just long enough before adding the vinegar to the bucket, you’ll push most of the water out of the raw water system, muffler, and exhaust hose and then
you’ll be pumping straight vinegar through the system. Once you’ve added vinegar, run the engine ONLY long enough to get the vinegar flowing through the mixing elbow, then shut it off, let it sit a while, and repeat (over and over) until your vinegar is all gone, then flush again with city water. Check the condition of your pencil zincs afterwards. Most mixing elbow problems are caused by “carbonization” which occurs (mostly) at low RPM and at shutdown. Always run the engine at a high (within redline) RPM for a couple of minutes immediately before pulling the kill-switch in order to minimize this carbon buildup.If that all seems too slow or tame, consider the following (but I DON’T recommend it).THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A SUGGESTION, BUT REFLECTS MY (ONE-TIME) EXPERIENCE WHICH COULD HAVE TURNED OUT BADLY!!I have (successfully) cleaned my system out with a LOT more drastic approach
by removing the inlet hose from the seacock and immersing it in a bucket filled with water with “some” muriatic acid mixed in. I would NOT recommend doing this for the following reasons…1) The EPA would certainly NOT approve, and it’s probably nine kinds of illegal in all 50 states and federal waters.2) You CANNOT do this in the marina, as the (very) corrosive fumes would blow downwind from the exhaust outlet, making your marina neighbors extremely unhappy…and possibly injured by the fumes. If your bottom paint is “red” (high copper), expect it to acquire an interesting green patina anywhere it is exposed above the waterline near the exhaust outlet.3) If your mixing elbow (or anything else in the system) is “near failing”…it WILL fail, perhaps at an inopportune time (while away from your marina, for instance…see item #2).4) If #3 occurs, you may be left with an “active”
(read that bubbling and expanding) water/acid mix trapped in your raw water system, which could result in significant damage before you are able to get it out. (Picture your seawater strainer exploding, for instance…or the heat exchanger) The same thing could result if the system is SO clogged with deposits that the acid mixture only serves to “knock them loose” and push them together to where the flow is obstructed.5) Any “pencil zincs” in your engine or heat exchanger will be immediately destroyed. If they are on the “upstream side” of the heat exchanger, any remaining pieces will be clogging the heat exchanger.6) If there is anything in your raw water system made of the “wrong kind” of rubber (nitrile, for instance), it will be ruined by the acid. My raw water impeller was unaffected, but others might not be. Ditto for any exposed wire reinforcement in your (rubber) exhaust
hose.REMEMBER… I TOLD YOU NOT TO DO THIS!!!— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “Al Lorman” <ajl@…> wrote:>> Alan:> > > > I don’t think the vinegar would stay in the exhaust elbow long enough to> dissolve anything. You can clean out the raw water side of the heat> exchanger if you let the vinegar sit in there overnight. If - big if - you> can readily remove the exhaust elbow, you could soak it in vinegar or> radiator cleaner.> > > > Al Lorman> > > > From: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com>
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Alan> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:24 PM> To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com> Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Winterizing using something to flush salt> deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?> > > > Now that my F-33 is finally back in salt water I was thinking that when > I winterize (yes I know, way too soon to be thinking this way:-)rather > than just running antifreeze through the raw water cooling portion of > my Yanmar maybe it would help to first run a gallon of vinegar or some > special solution to
dissolve deposits in the exhaust elbow.> Any thoughts on whether something like this would be worthwhile?> Thanks> Alan F-33 1982 Hull #51 SEAPR>
Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)
Harsh acid treatment highly NOT recommended for installed sanitation
systems…I’ve explained before what happened to me when I flushed
the head system with muriatic acid/water mix, but I’ll repeat it for
those who may have missed it…
In an effort to avoid the removal of the hoses to clean them out, I
mixed up “some” muriatic acid with fresh water and pumped it through
the head. This was a bad idea for several reasons.
Although there wasn’t a LOT of buildup in the hoses (which I had
NOT been flushing regularly with vinegar as described in my previous
post), there WAS enough that the dissolution of what was there caused
a “plug” to form in the line somewhere between the (Whale) pump
downstream of the Lavac head and the seacock at the waste outlet.
I could hear the acid/water reacting in the lines and was getting
some backflow of that (and gunk) into the head.
I continued pumping acid/water through in effort to clear the clog
until such point as the acid DESTROYED the (nitrile) rubber diaphragm
in the pump and I was unable to pump any more of anything. When I
later dissasembled it, the diaphragm had curled up into a little
black potato-chip-looking thing about 1/4 the size it was
originally…and it was very “crispy”.
At that point, I had acid, water, and calcium carbonate (??)
reacting inside the hoses.
It wouldn’t move out, and it was no longer backflowing into the
head.
The pressure continued to build until the Y-Valve exploded, along
with the attachment point of the hose to the pump outlet.
Result:
Purchase and installation of 1 new Whale pump
Purchase and installation of new sanitation hose between pump and Y-
Valve.
Purchase and installation of new Y-Valve
Purchase and installation of various hose clamps required for above.
Cleanup of (relatively small) amount of acid/water/gunk from cabinet
beneath sink in head and bilge.
Note that whatever was left in the hose (beyond the vacuum breaker at
the 180 degree turn in the high point of the hose) eventually
dissolved and ran out of the boat and into the water. That was the
ONLY “good” thing to come of this, since once I got the pump, Y-Valve
& hoses replaced, everything worked really well again.
This is WHY I now religiously flush vinegar through the system at the
end every trip (and why I no longer use muriatic acid for anything
related to the boat…at least while it’s ON the boat).
I have done other dumb things in my life which I may (or may not)
reveal when the situation/discussion warrants…but DON’T make this
one yourself. Muriatic acid is (I think) 5 percent hydrochloric, or
thereabouts…and it is highly corrosive and really hard on lungs &
eyeballs.
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Melissa <kalicinm@…>
wrote:
Yes, In fact, it is suggested to flush a cup of vinigar through
your san hose weekly or monthly to prevent the salt water scum
buildup and keep it all smelling nicely (instead of the harsh acid
treatments less frequently). I know a livaboard that dumps a splash
in everytime he flushes and he claims that it keeps all san smells at
bay!!! It’s environmently friendly as well!!!Melissa
s/v Acedia F38“Pollution is a silent form of violence” -Ralph Nader
“Plastics, like diamonds, are forever!” -The Earth Resource
Foundation (for more information on the adverse effects of plastics
on human health and the environment, please visit–
http://www.earthresource.org/campaigns/capp/capp-overview.html)~ Please consider the environment prior to printing documents and
offset carbon footprint,
give electronics a break by shutting them down and unplugging when
not in use ~
Posted by Lola Jackson (lolaltd@…>)
So do I understand the vinegar goes directly into the head…Would I pour some in the cap to the holding tank too? Is that some thing I could do?Advice please.By the way I got my boat all stripped down and double tied down ready for the Hurricanes.Lola F30— On Thu, 9/4/08, katorpus <jrb@…> wrote:From: katorpus <jrb@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Winterizing using something to flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 4:42 PM
Harsh acid treatment highly NOT recommended for installed sanitation
systems…I’ ve explained before what happened to me when I flushed
the head system with muriatic acid/water mix, but I’ll repeat it for
those who may have missed it…
In an effort to avoid the removal of the hoses to clean them out, I
mixed up “some” muriatic acid with fresh water and pumped it through
the head. This was a bad idea for several reasons.
Although there wasn’t a LOT of buildup in the hoses (which I had
NOT been flushing regularly with vinegar as described in my previous
post), there WAS enough that the dissolution of what was there caused
a “plug” to form in the line somewhere between the (Whale) pump
downstream of the Lavac head and the seacock at the waste outlet.
I could hear the acid/water reacting in the lines and was getting
some backflow of that (and gunk) into the head.
I continued pumping acid/water through in effort to clear the clog
until such point as the acid DESTROYED the (nitrile) rubber diaphragm
in the pump and I was unable to pump any more of anything. When I
later dissasembled it, the diaphragm had curled up into a little
black potato-chip- looking thing about 1/4 the size it was
originally… .and it was very “crispy”.
At that point, I had acid, water, and calcium carbonate (??)
reacting inside the hoses.
It wouldn’t move out, and it was no longer backflowing into the
head.
The pressure continued to build until the Y-Valve exploded, along
with the attachment point of the hose to the pump outlet.
Result:
Purchase and installation of 1 new Whale pump
Purchase and installation of new sanitation hose between pump and Y-
Valve.
Purchase and installation of new Y-Valve
Purchase and installation of various hose clamps required for above.
Cleanup of (relatively small) amount of acid/water/gunk from cabinet
beneath sink in head and bilge.
Note that whatever was left in the hose (beyond the vacuum breaker at
the 180 degree turn in the high point of the hose) eventually
dissolved and ran out of the boat and into the water. That was the
ONLY “good” thing to come of this, since once I got the pump, Y-Valve
& hoses replaced, everything worked really well again.
This is WHY I now religiously flush vinegar through the system at the
end every trip (and why I no longer use muriatic acid for anything
related to the boat…at least while it’s ON the boat).
I have done other dumb things in my life which I may (or may not)
reveal when the situation/discussio n warrants…but DON’T make this
one yourself. Muriatic acid is (I think) 5 percent hydrochloric, or
thereabouts. …and it is highly corrosive and really hard on lungs &
eyeballs.
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa <kalicinm@… .>
wrote:
Yes, In fact, it is suggested to flush a cup of vinigar through
your san hose weekly or monthly to prevent the salt water scum
buildup and keep it all smelling nicely (instead of the harsh acid
treatments less frequently). I know a livaboard that dumps a splash
in everytime he flushes and he claims that it keeps all san smells at
bay!!! It’s environmently friendly as well!!!Melissa
s/v Acedia F38“Pollution is a silent form of violence” -Ralph Nader
“Plastics, like diamonds, are forever!” -The Earth Resource
Foundation (for more information on the adverse effects of plastics
on human health and the environment, please visit–
http://www.earthres ource.org/ campaigns/ capp/capp- overview. html)~ Please consider the environment prior to printing documents and
offset carbon footprint,
give electronics a break by shutting them down and unplugging when
not in use ~
\
Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)
Lola
If you’re using your holding tank & pumping it out periodically (rather
than direct overboard expulsion of whatever is flushed through the
head, then what I wrote about the flushing out of the overboard
discharge lines will not apply to you.
Understand that…if you’re using your holding tank…anything that
goes into the the head will end up in the tank…and there’s no need to
add vinegar directly into the tank (just pump it through the head).
If you AREN’T using your tank (as a liveaboard), your overboard pumping
is illegal in the marina…but that’s YOUR thing to deal with. In any
case, you can either turn the Y-Valve to pump into the tank temporarily
and pump the vinegar through the head into the (otherwise empty) tank
or pull the access plate on the tank and dump it in straight.
I don’t pump anything overboard at the dock that has already passed
through my body…mop water…the occasional unfinished beer, etc do
tend to find their way into the head or sink…but then again, when I’m
ON my boat, I don’t spend a lot of time tied up in the marina.
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@…>
wrote:
So do I understand the vinegar goes directly into the head…Would I
pour some in the cap to the holding tank too? Is that some thing I
could do?Advice please.
By the way I got my boat all stripped down and double tied down ready
for the Hurricanes.Lola F30
Posted by Lola Jackson (lolaltd@…>)
ThankyouThe Head is the worst part of my boat…Right now I have a tennis ball in the bowl until I do something…Vinegar is in there tooLola— On Thu, 9/4/08, katorpus <jrb@…> wrote:From: katorpus <jrb@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Winterizing using something to flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 11:19 PM
Lola
If you’re using your holding tank & pumping it out periodically (rather
than direct overboard expulsion of whatever is flushed through the
head, then what I wrote about the flushing out of the overboard
discharge lines will not apply to you.
Understand that…if you’re using your holding tank…anything that
goes into the the head will end up in the tank…and there’s no need to
add vinegar directly into the tank (just pump it through the head).
If you AREN’T using your tank (as a liveaboard), your overboard pumping
is illegal in the marina…but that’s YOUR thing to deal with. In any
case, you can either turn the Y-Valve to pump into the tank temporarily
and pump the vinegar through the head into the (otherwise empty) tank
or pull the access plate on the tank and dump it in straight.
I don’t pump anything overboard at the dock that has already passed
through my body…mop water…the occasional unfinished beer, etc do
tend to find their way into the head or sink…but then again, when I’m
ON my boat, I don’t spend a lot of time tied up in the marina.
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@… >
wrote:
So do I understand the vinegar goes directly into the head…Would I
pour some in the cap to the holding tank too? Is that some thing I
could do?Advice please.
By the way I got my boat all stripped down and double tied down ready
for the Hurricanes.Lola F30
\
Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
I think that Yanmar makes a product for cleaning the raw water circuit. Check with your Yanmar dealer about this. Not sure about the suitability of using it while the boat is in the water but I’ve never had to winterize one that was in the water.Thanks for the tip about acid in the head lines. I’ve never heard of that happening before. In fact I was under the impression, after using the acid a lot, that it would not effect rubber and plastics. Live and learn… George— On Thu, 9/4/08, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@…> wrote:From: Lola Jackson <lolaltd@…>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Winterizing using something to flush salt deposits/corrosion from
exhaust elbow?To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 11:45 PM
ThankyouThe Head is the worst part of my boat…Right now I have a tennis ball in the bowl until I do something… Vinegar is in there tooLola— On Thu, 9/4/08, katorpus <jrb@…> wrote:From: katorpus <jrb@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Winterizing using something to flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. comDate: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 11:19 PM
Lola
If you’re using your holding tank & pumping it out periodically (rather
than direct overboard expulsion of whatever is flushed through the
head, then what I wrote about the flushing out of the overboard
discharge lines will not apply to you.
Understand that…if you’re using your holding tank…anything that
goes into the the head will end up in the tank…and there’s no need to
add vinegar directly into the tank (just pump it through the head).
If you AREN’T using your tank (as a liveaboard), your overboard pumping
is illegal in the marina…but that’s YOUR thing to deal with. In any
case, you can either turn the Y-Valve to pump into the tank temporarily
and pump the vinegar through the head into the (otherwise empty) tank
or pull the access plate on the tank and dump it in straight.
I don’t pump anything overboard at the dock that has already passed
through my body…mop water…the occasional unfinished beer, etc do
tend to find their way into the head or sink…but then again, when I’m
ON my boat, I don’t spend a lot of time tied up in the marina.
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@… >
wrote:
So do I understand the vinegar goes directly into the head…Would I
pour some in the cap to the holding tank too? Is that some thing I
could do?Advice please.
By the way I got my boat all stripped down and double tied down ready
for the Hurricanes.Lola F30
\
Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)
George
I have NO idea what the “mechanism of injury” was that caused the
rubber diaphragm to be destroyed. Depending on where you look, the
diaphragms in these pumps are described as being made of nitrile
rubber, butyl rubber, or neoprene…so I don’t even actually KNOW
what kind of rubber it was…(obviously the “wrong kind”)
One of the components of neoprene IS hydrochloric acid, so it stands
to reason that some kind of solvent effect could have resulted here.
The only “effect” on the plastic in the pump body & Y-Valve was due
to the pressure which resulted from the contained-but-ongoing
chemical reaction…which blew both of them to pieces.
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@…> wrote:
to winterize one that was in the water.
Thanks for the tip about acid in the head lines. I’ve never heard
of that happening before. In fact I was under the impression, after
using the acid a lot, that it would not effect rubber and plastics.
Live and learn…George
Posted by Bob Weeks (rweeks6508@…>)
Yes they do. I have a bottle in my
maintenance kit but I have not used it yet. I will get the name and send it
along. There is also a great site for those who have a 2GM20F or not, that has
a slide in the PDF presentation on how he flushed his engine. Of course its
out of the boat but you could improvise.
http://mysite.verizon.net/knellew/yanmar2gmrebuild/index.html
Bob
From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008
6:30 AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: Winterizing using something to flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust
elbow?
I think that Yanmar makes a product for cleaning
the raw water circuit. Check with your Yanmar dealer about this.
Not sure about the suitability of using it while the boat is in the water but
I’ve never had to winterize one that was in the water.
Thanks for the tip about acid in the head lines. I’ve never heard of
that happening before. In fact I was under the impression, after using
the acid a lot, that it would not effect rubber and plastics. Live and
learn…
George
— On Thu, 9/4/08, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Lola Jackson
<lolaltd@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Winterizing using something to
flush salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 11:45 PM
Thankyou
The Head is the worst part of my boat…Right now I have a tennis ball in
the bowl until I do something… Vinegar is in there too
Lola
— On Thu, 9/4/08, katorpus <jrb@…>
wrote:
From: katorpus <jrb@…>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Winterizing using something to flush
salt deposits/corrosion from exhaust elbow?
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 11:19 PM
Lola
If you’re using your holding tank & pumping it out periodically (rather
than direct overboard expulsion of whatever is flushed through the
head, then what I wrote about the flushing out of the overboard
discharge lines will not apply to you.
Understand that…if you’re using your holding tank…anything that
goes into the the head will end up in the tank…and there’s no need to
add vinegar directly into the tank (just pump it through the head).
If you AREN’T using your tank (as a liveaboard), your overboard pumping
is illegal in the marina…but that’s YOUR thing to deal with. In any
case, you can either turn the Y-Valve to pump into the tank temporarily
and pump the vinegar through the head into the (otherwise empty) tank
or pull the access plate on the tank and dump it in straight.
I don’t pump anything overboard at the dock that has already passed
through my body…mop water…the occasional unfinished beer, etc do
tend to find their way into the head or sink…but then again, when I’m
ON my boat, I don’t spend a lot of time tied up in the marina.
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@
yahoogroups. com, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@… >
wrote:
So do I understand the vinegar goes directly into the head…Would I
pour some in the cap to the holding tank too? Is that some thing I
could do?Advice please.
By the way I got my boat all stripped down and double tied down ready
for the Hurricanes.Lola F30
\
\
Posted by George Huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
heh heh! I worked with explosives for 17 years so I’m well aware of
the results of a contained chemical reaction… woof! Like I said,
thanks for the warning and I’m just happy it wasn’t me being taken
to the school of hard knocks this time. 
George
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “katorpus” <jrb@…> wrote:
George
I have NO idea what the “mechanism of injury” was that caused the
rubber diaphragm to be destroyed. Depending on where you look, the
diaphragms in these pumps are described as being made of nitrile
rubber, butyl rubber, or neoprene…so I don’t even actually KNOW
what kind of rubber it was…(obviously the “wrong kind”)One of the components of neoprene IS hydrochloric acid, so it stands
to reason that some kind of solvent effect could have resulted here.The only “effect” on the plastic in the pump body & Y-Valve was due
to the pressure which resulted from the contained-but-ongoing
chemical reaction…which blew both of them to pieces.— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@> wrote:
to winterize one that was in the water.Thanks for the tip about acid in the head lines. I’ve never heard
of that happening before. In fact I was under the impression, after
using the acid a lot, that it would not effect rubber and plastics.
Live and learn…George