Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts

Boat Systems
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Calling Carl Bertie and other Freedom 40 owners that have the original Al masts or people that know something about them and hi to everyone else :smiley:

Quick introduction - new owners of a Freedom 40 CC, hull number 21, to be moved from the East Coast to California. Long term plans are to cruise somewhere warm (prepping for 5 years seems reasonable?) Have lurked a bit on this board. You guys know a lot about these boats and are a real resource to us newcomers.

Question about the masts - I’ve been told (and it looks like) they are made in three sections with each higher one slid into the lower. It also looks like at each seam going from the larger to next smaller section there may be fairing compound to fair in the step change? Is this correct? Also, is there any history of these masts cracking near the seams, the screw holes, etc?

I am sure there are more questions to follow.

Fair winds,

Erik and Evi

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Erik and Evi
I think you’re right about the three sections. The first two are joined with sleeves and screws to hold in the sleeves. I think the top, tapered, section is welded on, but I can’t tell. The bottom seam definitely has putty to fair it out. The putty has cracked around my screws and seams, but the screws are still tight, and it has been this way for over 15 years.

I’ve talked to a lot of NonSuch and a few Freedom aluminum mast owners and have only heard of one breaking. It was a 36’ NonSuch that was first hit by lightning, and then later in the storm was knocked over far enough for the mast to hit the water. The boat came upright, sailed for 5 minutes, and then the mast came over, after the storm had left. I was told the break was right where the mounts for the choker were, at least four screw holes around the circumference.

Always gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to know that there are only two small holes in my masts, for the forward boom topping lift padeye.

The original Freedom 40’s were designed with the carbon fiber that I saw in Hull number 1. The aluminum was because the insurance companies couldn’t survey the fiber ones after a lightning strick and wouldn’t insure them.

Go cruising as soon as you can afford it. The boat improvement list never goes away. The education in the first month of cruising will equal 10 years of marina life. Your health is not likely to improve until you leave. We’ve found part time cruising to work great. You may have to leave your boat a long way from home, but you have no marina fees for the time you are using it.

Following Seas

Carl Berdie,
www.RunningFree.us

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Thanks Bertie, esp about the advice regarding the cruising… I agree!!!

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Erik and Evi
AKA Freedom 40 CC hull 21
I own Freedom 40 cc hull 20 -is you boat on the east coast of the US ?
Steve Kring

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Hey Steve. Boat is in NY, but we are shipping it to the SF Bay Area

Erik

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Erik,
When are you shipping and are masts stepped?
I am building neew mast and feel that I have a good handle on them but would like as much information as possible prior to the build.
By continually shortning the must do list I will be back sailing in a reasonble time.
My boat has a San Diego hail port.
Thanks Steve

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Carl Berdie,

A few more-maybe more- questions if I may?
Are your masts stepped or in the yard?
Are the mast bases closed with an aluminum cap fitting as on the Nonsuch mast I have seen?
Do you have running back stays?
I understand my boat originally had them.
Are both masts the same length then when stepped the forward mast sets higher that the Mizzen?
How many haylard/toping lift blocks in general do you have on your mast head?
Any Blocks facing foward?
Do you know the thickness of the mast extrusion on your boat?
Do you see any reason not to build the booms out of aluminum?
I have made a full scale drawing of original wooden booms that I viewed-We can bend just about anything here.
I have seen a number 5 Freedom 40CC and no two masts are the same-some carbon fiber-some aluminum-each different.

Thanks Again,

Steve Kring
I believe I am getting close

8

Steve;
My masts are stepped. They are open at the bottom end and appear to be about 1/4" thick, (I haven’t measured, and wouldn’t swear by this).

The Mizzen mast is about three or four feet longer (again I haven’t measured), than the Main. When stepped, the main is a few, (6 to 12") inches higher than the mizzen.

Main masthead has a block on a becket facing forward, (I use it for the radar reflector), and the block for the main halyard. There is a shackle for the main topping lift behind the halyard. The mizzen has the staysail halyard on a becket forward, the mizzen halyard block, and the running backstay and topping lift shackles behind the halyard block.

The line connecting the sail heads to the halyard will make the top of the sail be a few feet below the masthead when raised. The mast must be longer than the luff. The line must be long enough to reach around the mast circumference when the sail is lowered, the mast circumference is much less at the masthead.

I’ve got running backs and you will need them to fly staysails. The storm staysail will sail you on all points of sail. I’ve used it confidently with gusts that went to 65 knots. The monster is just plain fun, it’s nice to outrun fully rigged racers flying their chutes with little or no work.
The running backs tie to the toerail just forward of the mizzen mast when not in use. They go to the very aft end of the toerail when in use. The wire is attached to a handy billy at the lower end to get the length right when moving them.

I’ve seen aluminum wishbones on Freedoms and see no reason why they wouldn’t work on a 40.

It appears that I have more ballast added under the salon. I don’t remember seeing this on the carbon fiber boats I saw. If you’re replacing carbon fiber with aluminum, I would certainly hire a naval architectt to make sure it all works.

Good luck with it all.
Carl Berdie

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Carl Berdie,

Thanks again. I have assembled a great deal of information on the rigs and am ready to meet with a designer I feel comfortable with.
My boat had both Aluminum and Carbon fiber mast during its life -not sure of the order-It has no masts now-hence so many questions.
I will be using aluminum masts.
I would still like to see your boat when rigged, if possible ,so I will stay in touch.
My goal is to be restored to a point-rigged and sailing mid summer.
Thanks again

Steve Kring

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Steve - Some random thoughts:

This F40 supposedly has been re-rigged with Nonsuch masts and booms (off of the N36 I was told) http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/Freedom-Yachts-40-CENTER-COCKPIT-KETCH-2007984/North-Fort-Myers/FL/United-States. The owner may have helpful info.

My masts seem to be pretty standard and were made out of three sections, bottom is NOT tappered (this makes installation on the boat much more straight forward), the short middle transition piece is, the longer top end is also. The sections are bolted together by as series of machine screws (both circumferential and longitudinal) Masts are capped at the top with cranes for the halyards. 1/4 in thickness for the lower section is about right (there is a 3x4 rectangular hole about 8 " from the bottom to let cables out.

There are two aft halyards on the main and a forward and aft halyard on the mizzen.
There are boom topping lifts (wire with an adjustable purchase at the end of the boom) and boom lifts for the front of the booms. I have a single aft runner on the mizzen that is attached to the front of the mast crane and can be flipped to either side depending on which is windward.

The mizzen mast is going to be longer than the main - simply because the distance from the deck to the mast step is longer aft in the boat. But as to height above water and sail dimensions, main and mizzen may be the same. Or not… From http://www.mauriprosailing.com/techinfo/boatspecs/Rig%20F.htm or http://www.pyacht.com/RigDataF.htmyou can get a sense of some of the sail dimensions that are possible (listed as model and then P/E for main then mizzen)

FREEDOM 40 42.0/20.3 42.0/18.3
FREEDOM 40 AC BOOM 45.1/16.3 40.8/15.0
FREEDOM 40 CC BOOM 45.1/16.3 41.6/15.0
FREEDOM 40 WISHBONE 42.0/18.3 42.0/18.3

I saw the earlier discussion on the necessary rigging for the original wrap-around sails. Whereas I really like the concept of the whishbone boom (I’ve got many miles on Wyliecat 30s), the original F$0 sail plan may not large enough. From what I’ve heard, the F40 is a bit slow in light breeze, which to me indicates the need for larger sails. You have the option of building taller masts, but I am considering more roach - and in order to support that I think I need sail track on the masts, full length battens and stronger booms.

I do have questions about how you are planning on building your mast replacements - Al or Carbon? And your boom design. Tom Wylie has done both Al and carbon booms for the Wyliecats (30, 39, and larger). On problem that I am aware of is that the joints at the boom ends fail due to the large compressive loads the booms see when the outhaul (ooker?) is applied.

You are more than welcome to look at my masts/rigging when the boat gets here in May. I’ll gladly take any and all pictures and dimensions for you, too.


Erik

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Erik,

Thanks for all the great information.
If possible, I would like to come and see the boat rigs and any photos you have.
Let me know where and when please.

I am going with aluminum masts-$$$$ less
No decision on booms
Wrap around sails look good to me, so far.

Nonsuch mast research:
I did look at the Freedom 40 with Nonsuch masts. I don’t know which Nonsuch model they came from.
Nonsuch rigs are as hard to find as replacements for Freedom masts.
I did go to Brewers Marine in Essex CT this winter and the manager allowed me to measure the Nonsuch masts that were removed for winter storage. The mast he said that would fit my 40 was from the Nonsuch 30. One of the mast measured 49’ long, had a 9" base circumfrence and tapered to 4" at the top-two sections-sleeved. The second mast was a 57’ long, a circumfrence of 10" at the base tapered to 4 " at the top-two sections-sleeved. Both extrusions are 1/4" thick. Both bases were closed with castings.

The Nonsuch aluminum booms have cast aluminum fittings on both ends. I believe these castings to be unique to the Nonsuch boom.

After examining the Nonsuch rigs and their workings, I have decided to pursue the original Freedom design.

Original design: Gary Hoyt wrote, the base section was indeed a 10" straight extrusion and the top section was tapered.

Measured aluminum rig: I measured a Freedom 40 with a set of standing aluminum masts and found them to be close in length. The mizzen mast step was 20" below the main mast step. Both masts roughly measured 49’ from base to mast head.

I photographed a Freedom 40 rigged with carbon fiber masts and normal booms. By scaling-highly inaccurate-in the photos it appears that the main mast sets approximatly two feet taller than the mizzen mast.

I have found a source for anodized aluminum poles 50’ in length, sleeved, 1/4" thick, 10" base diameter tapering to 4" on top.
A fully tapered extrusion, from base to top, is used on the Nonsuch and should work on the Freedom.

It would be nice if there was a standard rig design-each seems to be different, but then where would the fun be if this was easy?

I am begining to understand the rig and the simplicity of opperation. Thanks to the folks on the Forum.

I do have some drawings for the boat-hull, deck, sections of the side and bow to stern, and a boat rigged. I don’t know how accurate they are.They were in the boat when I took delievery. They are large and if anyone migh need a copy let me know.

Thanks again,

Steve Kring
Kringco@verizon.net

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Steve,

If you have to completely re-rig I would consider all possible improvements to the original wrap around Freedom rig. Search this board, there are several discussions here about the combination of wishbones and single ply sails on (or without) tracks, which is what I feel is the optimum for both handling simplicity, performance and costs.

Also mind you that wrap around sails involve twice the sailmaker’s labour hours in making the sails and therefore will increase the costs of the sails over single ply sails. Furthermore, with wraparounds it’s more difficult to have more roach in the sail or have squarehead sails so with wraparounds your sail area will always be close to the original sailplan’s area, unless you use taller masts, in which case you would want to rework the stability calculations and need to consider adding ballast.

If rerigging, it’s a good idea to re-calculate the optimum sailplan’s CoE anyway. I feel that having the CoE more forward would be an improvement on the F40. The F40 had two identical sails for simplicity but there must be reasons why the sailplans of the F44 and F33 have a different relation of the areas of the two sails. The F33 has 66% of total area in the main and 33% in the mizzen, the F44 has 55% of the total area in the main and 45% in the mizzen.

The F40, being heavy on the rudder as it is, in my opinion would benefit from having a larger main sail. If you keep the mizzen about the same size, that would increase your total sailarea which is good to speed up the somewhat sluggish F40. Look at the F44 too, this boat evolved from the F40 after the experience gained with the F40, with changes in the aft part of the hull and a larger sail plan.

I.M.H.O. the Wyliecat rig is the most advanced wishbone rig there is at this time and I would have a good look at this rig and see what I could learn from it. And perhaps you can keep your costs down by buying standard Wylie components.

One last remark: be careful in using sketches, plans and drawings of Freedoms. I found these to be inaccurate in their dimensions. These documents were mostly made for marketing purposes and have probably been scaled and distorted to fit brochure pages. Don’t trust them.

Best,
Michel

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Steve;

I think you should contact Halsey Herreschoff about the mast specs. The boat that Eric posted about doesn’t have the same mast height relationship as mine. When I have had mine out the mizzen is at least 3’ maybe even 4 or 5’ longer than the main. When stepped the main is less than a foot taller than the mizzen. There may be a difference between the center cockpit and my aft cockpit model that I don’t know about. Not all of the boats were built by Tillotson Pearson, only the US made ones, there may be differences there as well. Eric’s description of the masthead seems quite correct. I am planning on being at Brewer Wickford the week of May 7th if you want to take a better look at Running Free. I also have on board most of the original owners manual which has many measurements in it. I’m not sure if the mast dimensions are there or not.

It was my understanding that Mr. Herreschoff did all the numbers work while Mr. Hoyt had the creative ideas. I also believe he is still practising and can be reached at the Herreschoff museum in Bristol RI.

Carl Berdie

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Steve - research is always good!!! I can’t wait to get my boat to the West Coast (May?), do some bottom work, lauch, figure out the rigging/sails and sail the darn thing. I will def. keep you abreast of the developments and you can swing up anytime you like.

Some thoughts - I seem to recall a write-up that recommended sailing and reefing the F40 such that both masts have similar sail area - I am assuming the mast are more lightly loaded and the boat handles better if you have the sail plan split rather than dropping the mizzen and sailing with the main only when it gets windy. But for safety reasons when designing the rig, you would want a single mast to be rated for all of the load- i.e. when determining loadings on the mast, assume it is the only one on the F40. Given the displacement of a Nonsuch 30, that may mean those masts are too light. It would take some math, but I seem to recall the calculation has the power of 4 involved, so a small change in diameter (1") can make a large change in strength and stiffness.

I am with Michael: The WylieCats have it going on :slight_smile: They use the an externally mounted sail track https://www.tidesmarine.com/?page_id=61 that makes raising and lowering extremely easy (expensive though so if you figure out how to machine one, I’m very interested). Full batten sails with some boats even doing square top mains that seem to be better on a reach than the round roached mains. Also, the rigs/sails are designed to be very adjustable as to shape and can be full or flat as needed. The mast flexes and flattens the main, plus spills the wind out of the sail such that you can carry the same sail up to 25 knots without reefing, and when racing, even to higher wind speeds (they do not reef in SF Bay, even is the summer, and sail just fine when it gets light). You need strong, stiff booms for that and I don’t think the teak booms are up to it. The WC booms are either Al or CF and wider than the Nonsuch, and do not interfere with the sail. Booms are on fixed stays, with lines going between each wishbone, under the foot of the sail to catch it when dousing - to drop you simply luff up and let the halyard go and stand back. Main sheets are 2x1 - even at that, it is quite a long sheet because the booms are so long. Gybing is accomplished by simply sailing by the lee until the main comes over - at that point you are close to reaching on the other board such that the main will luff and backwind as it comes across the center line. Very undramatic unless the sheet hooks on something…

In interest of openness I need to admit that I am considering a chambered junk rig as a replacement sail plan for my boat though. These thoughts are not at all fully fleshed out and in part depend on the cost to convert my rig to something similar to a Wyliecat.

Erik

Erik

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Steve, Michel

Michel makes good points. The labor isn’t double for the wrap, but I’m sure it’s more. There is less detail work and lighter cloth for the wrap. The roach can be increased with bigger battens, but not a whole lot. Steve Thurston made my main larger than the mizzen by a slightly longer foot and luff. I got an additional 10 to 15 sq feet. The increase in performance was tremendous, but the old sail by comparison was totally shot. Hard to attribute the better speed. The ease of repair and lack of expensive stuff to go wrong is what sold me on the wrap method.

Carl Berdie

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A former Freedom employee detailed the aluminum mast construction to me. The bottom section is aluminum pipe. The transition section was purpose fabricated. The top section was a tapered aluminum flag pole. He told me the sections were first assembled as a friction fit using a forklift to jam them together then mechanically fastened. This was told to me on a dock in the BVI and it was not until I was home again and looking closely at the masts that I could tell the tale was true!

Our boat (hull 7) began life with wishbone booms and wrap around sails. A subsequent owner added isomat (conventional) booms with jiffy reefing Also strong track with cars and full battened sails. I added lazy jacks and stackpacks which for the lazy cruiser I believe is the ultimate solutions. :wink:

We were rigged with running backs when we purchased the boat but we had no staysails so we removed them.

George

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Carl Berdie,

I would like to come see you boat if the offer is still open. Let me know day/day options so I can schedule the trip!

Steve Kring

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Steve Kring;
I am leaving tomorrow morning, should be out there by Monday. I hope to get the prop off and to a shop on Monday, Tuesday I should be there almost all day. The boats at Wickford Brewer and I can be reached at 612-825-4741. Until the prop is in the shop, I won’t know for sure my schedule. Feel free to call, I should have a good idea on Monday afternoon.
Carl Berdie

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Hey Steve - I just realized you are in FL - for some reason I thought you were in San Diego… In any case, my boat is suppose to arrive at the Berkeley Marine Center in Berkeley, CA by Wednesday of next week. The mast don’t go in until the boat is in the water and I expect to be on the hard for two weeks at least. You are welcome to come by or ask for any specific pictures or measurements off the rig.

Erik

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Carl Berdie
The sail cost of the two ply wrap around sail was not too bad when compared to the heavier single ply sail. Then adding the track and the associated hardware I would need, the two ply wrap is more cost effective.
I measured the mast steps from the water line on my boat to establish the difference in the elevation of the two. The main mast step is approximatly 34" higher than the mizzen step. Adding this information to the approximat length, 49’, of the masts I measured on another boat I came up with the total height of approximatly 52’ above the water line. This number appears to coincide with other information I have read and matches the most detail drawings I have.
I am trying to get there Tuesday this week and will call-thanks.

Thanks Steve Kring


Erik
I agree the Nonsuch 30 mast would most probably too light. I read an article by Gary Hoyt on how to sail the Freedom 40 in which he said (condensed) to sail with both sails equal, full or reefed. The boat was not designed to sail with only one sail.
I will not make it to CA but will ask to have a few measurements and pictures taken if I may? I may have my son drop by-He lives in CA and works at the San Diego Zoo, maybe not too far. I will find out.

Thanks again,
Steve Kring


Michel
I agree that there have been big improvements over the last 40 years. I have to figure the value of the improvements- spicifically-ease of use, performance, durability, and cost.
I will primarily single handling the boat.
I have contacted Wylie C and the rig looks great. I am gathering information to send to them for an estimate of cost.
Good point on the drawings-if I mix all of the drawings that I posess together, I get a most unusual looking craft which does not"close"
Thanks again!
Steve Kring