Propane dilemma

On my 30 I have two Horizontal Worthington aluminum propane tanks - 6 pound (one gallon).

One of them came with the boat when I bought her 23 years ago and bears the manufacture date 1985. In 2005 I bought a second tank with the new OPD and had my original tank upgraded to the new OPD. So all good except for age. I have had the original tank recertified numerous times and now the newer tank has exceed 12 years age so I have to have it re certified as well. One of the annoying issues is that I use propane very slowly so it turns out every time I refill I have certification issues and the tanks may have run out of lives. New tanks cost $300 + I need two of them so I have backup.

Meanwhile, my propane solenoid is corroding and will need to be replaced before long, that will have to include hoses which are original build as far as I know.

So I have been contemplating removing the propane system completely and going to electric. In the past this would be impractical but nowadays we have these relatively light weight “power stations” with pretty good capacity that incorporate an inverter, solar + 12VDC cig lighter + alternator + 110VAC charging inputs and lots of output power flexibility plus the prices are dropping pretty quickly.

To fully replicate what I have today I would need the power station, a range top, an oven, and a wiring and charging strategy. Doing the math on cost I would spend $1000 on the power station (portable so it can be used off the boat as necessary) $150 on a small two burner induction rangetop and, maybe another $150 on a stove (assuming I really need one, I never use it). Say another $200 on materials. So total refurb would cost around $1500 vs maybe $800 for new tanks, hoses and solenoid/regulator plus hassle factor dealing with several gas connections which must be flawless.

I have 200 watts of solar and a 130 AMP alternator (tuned down to 80 amps via my regulator settings) This has been more than adequate to maintain batteries on the hook with 12VDC cooler and diesel heater running in the winter and my 12vdc cooler in the summer. I have not had to do engine charging except for a few times during the winter with bad sun days. I would need to do engine charging for long trips under sail, but the AP load forces me to do that anyway.

BTW 12VDC coolers are the bomb, I love my 30Qt BougeRV cooler. It lives on the boat but we take it on road trips too.

I am pretty confident I can make electrification work. If I loose the tanks, the stove and all the infrastructure I can probably save some weight too. Not a lot, but the current stove weighs a ton and is likely heavier that any Power Station I would consider and with its removal provides a perfect place to store the battery and additional storage - low and amidships, easy to secure. Some wet storage also frees up in the cockpit with the removal of the tanks and solenoid. And, of course the gas is gone so there is the safety benefit too with exception of 1Lb tanks to run the BBQ which I don’t take with me too much these days.

I purchased a watt meter to get some feel for how much power it takes to cook stuff and boil water, etc., It is a surprisingly modest number of watt hours overall so the demand side seems low enough to make this viable given the capacity of some of the larger power stations.

I am sure some of you have thought about this and I would be interested in your reactions to such a project.

Hi Mike- There are probably too many variables for a definitive answer, but I’ll throw some thoughts out.
It sounds like you are essentially creating a second house “battery” dedicated to a cooking function. What you have not defined specifically in your plan is how you want to use your solar panels or engine to charge your primary house bank or your power station. I don’t think you intend to put them in parallel, so you would need to switch between charging sources.
But generally, cooking is done far more efficiently with propane than 12VDC. I do think you could certainly do what you suggest, but so much depends on actual usage. I could easily see using up your entire charge trying to cook a dinner, say pasta and meatballs/sauce and not being able to have coffee and eggs the next morning. I think you would find yourself trying to keep your power station charging, and also you house batteries with limited resources other than running the engine.
On our boats, a propane tank can last most of a season easily.
I went through the new tank and solenoid process last year so I feel your pain but my closing thought is that you will end up spending more money for less capabilities, and have more charging complexity and anxiety on top of that.

Mark

Mark,

Thank you for the feedback. Appreciate you taking the time.

You are correct in that the “power station” would effectively be an additional - independent house bank. I also agree it is a leap from my current propane system which, like yours, consumes a bottle a year - at most. I singlehand almost exclusively so that reduces gas consumption even further. I agree this reconfig would expose me to some risk in terms of “range” (to steal a term from the EV world).

I’ll try to make my case…or unmake it.

I am calling this new power source a “power station” to differentiate it from a “battery” because these new devices are equipped with a layer of functionality including MPPT solar controller, 110 VAC inverter, monitoring apps (in many cases), easy portability and onboard BMS. So there are benefits associated with this approach which have some value beyond that of a POB (plain old battery). The power station I am considering weighs 30 Lbs and is rated 1500 watt hours. Maybe 1200 WH usable.

As a result of some of my racing activities I have a fairly well refined power budget for the boat and, as you point out, charging requirements are key. Having said that, I have a good handle on what goes where with regard to onboard power consumption.

There are definitely challenges. I currently have a Kidd Midnight controller and two one hundred watt panels. The panels are adequate to keep the boat fully charged for about 8 months a year (sun angle and weather). I occasionally have to use engine charging in winter months, usually 45 minutes to an hour a day due to cooler box AND diesel heater loads primarily. I also run some instruments to keep an eye on depth, wind speed, anchor alarm. I have a serpentine driven 130 amp alternator (tuned down to 75 amps for the time being).

Offshore, I require daily engine charging due to AP demand, but my most frequent use case are long motoring sessions followed by racing/sailing followed by more motoring. This is due to my location upriver on the California Delta and the need to motor 10 NM out of a tight river system near my home and then out of the Delta into SF Bay. another 25 NM. I just love the Delta and motoring slowly though it is something I enjoy so I consider these parts of the trip part of the experience not a hassle driven by charging batteries.

I have sailed out of the Delta numerous times but with narrow channels, adverse currents, and depth constraints, motoring is less stressful and a lot faster trip to open sailing ground in SF Bay.

The plan regarding charging the power station is as follows. At the dock, plugged into shore power I would use pass through charging. All cooking gear can be used at the output of the station which it is simultaneously being charged via shore power, similar to an UPS system. I would be using the integrated power station inverter to give me 110 VAC for cooking. We then leave the dock with a full station battery. The drain on the station is essentially zero when not cooking or using 110VAC for other purposes which would be rare. Meanwhile the bank is being charged by batt charger at the dock and alternator/panels underway.

So now I need to cook (heat water, food, whatever). I fire up my induction cooktop boil some water for coffee, down 100 watts (I have tested). Fire up the air fryer and the induction cooktop for dinner and use another 600 watts (air fryer consumption tested). Total power for dinner and morining coffee + miscellaneous, let’s say 800 watt hours per day. At 12 volts I need to find 58 amp hours a day to recover. During summer I top up my batteries by about noon on the panels and that is using my 12VDC cooler for a freezer. The loads are then carried by the panels and I shunt about 10 amps out of the panels The Kidd controller has a special “load” output which can automatically redirect unused SA power to a load which, in this case, would be the power station. So that would give me about four ish hours at 10 amps while at anchor. when sailing with all my gear turned on and the AP engaged I may get just a few amps. So at anchor I loose ground slowly, say 320 watts per day on the power station (or 25% per day).

The house bank is fully charged daily by the SAs. This sounds pretty good. When sailing long distances offshore we are back to engine charging which I had to do anyway. In this case I might see as much as 20 amps of charge current to the station the SA panels + the Cig lighter input. I also have the option of adding one or two lightweight 100W flex panels to the system while at anchor. I currently have one 100 watt flexible panel which is not used aboard except for long distance racing when it is attached to the existing SA wiring harness and attached to my dodger roof (my two framed panels hang on the pushpit). The flex panels are flat and easy to store under a bunk so I could simply whip that out and deploy in the cockpit for some additional oomph.

The station cig plug charging input maxes out at 10 amps. I would hard wire this from house bank to a breaker and then to the station. Typically this charge source would be activated via the breaker only when we are motoring. So we can tap some power from the alternator this way without a lot of complex switching, just need to remember to manage the breaker. We now have another 120 watts per hour when the engine is running for a total of 240 watts/hr. Since I usually get engine charging done in an hour, we only get the 240 for one hour and that is the one scenario where getting charge directly from the alternator would be very useful. I need to research the availability of a splitter or some such so I could SAFELY maintain max alternator output through the charging cycle and simply redirect excess amps to the station. As my AGMs charge my regulator follows its charge cycle algorithm and begins to reduce charging voltage/current accordingly so in the latter part of the bank charge cycle there are tons of amps available to the station if I could figure out how to get them there.

On balance I think I can manage the charging part of the equation.

Now on to other Pros and Cons I have come up with

Pro

1500 watt station inverter now available for whatever at dock and underway

No propane on the boat - plumbing/tanks/electrical maint. gone

Removes the stove. The oven part has never been reliable and it is heavier that batt which replaces it

Current marine stove alcove big enough and low enough for unobtrusive battery install and added storage

Power station management app

Low install complexity and easy portability for other uses - on my boat there is an 110 shore power electrical socket just above the galley stove. I will permanently plug into this socket for shore power pass through charging when shore power available. Easily unplugged for portability

Cost of stations is dropping as China economy tanks :laughing:



Con

Added charging complexity and range risk - mitigation power budget and supporting design

Risk associated with high voltage 110 VAC underway - mitigation, be careful its dangerous

System failure is going to be hard to deal with - mitigation, bring aboard a jetboil and store small camp bottle in propane locker, ditch this after adequate experience but save the original infrastructure bits. If I screwed up I can go back to propane.

may be unable to safely split alt output between bank and station. mitigation - research availability of splitter

May be an issue leaving unit on long term charge, will have to remember to charge station prior to passage. mitigation - I do power my cooler up a day before departure to get it and contents down to well below freezing on shore power. I would add station charging to my pre depart checklist.

Mike- You’ve clearly thought things through and can make your plan work. I think collectively, as cruising sailors, we are at a similar juncture in technology as EV’s are on the roads. The technology is there but the practicality is highly dependent on specific needs and use patterns.
As interesting and forward thinking your proposed project is, I still think a simple propane renewal would be cheaper, easier and less complex at this point in time. (I don’t think that will remain true as battery, cooktop, and solar technology improves over the years.) I do hope that you will prove me wrong because we will all learn from your experiences. Best of luck!

Mark

OK…I am now rather surprised, and could use some support here on our board.

For a number of years I tried to fine SOME way, ANY way to get a new horizontal tank for my F-32 and no one had ideas. My tank is original and is failing, hard to get anyone to refill it these days…event in Florida (where rules are “more like guidelines”).

I shopped my local tank dealers, called national manufacturers asked for help on this…they all say “we dont make 6lb horizontal tanks” and wont sell any of the parts to convert one from Vertical to Horizontal. I offered $500 for any of them to put one together and no one in Florida or Bay Area was remotely interested.

Then I see this post. Does ANYONE have a source for new tanks? Anyone who will make one?

Again I would gladly: Pay a lot for a new one, or Buy one that works that is getting rid of theirs.


My experience with the stove and tank is that it will last a season unless I am doing a whole lot of baking and not using my grill. So I love the gas, but getting a new tank is the dilemma.


ANY HELP HERE???


Thx

BTW - I have a gas AND electric system on my Little Guy Max teardrop camper (our land yacht) and event with two great batteries and an inverter - our induction hot plate blows through batteries rather quickly, let alone the micro. So unless we are on shore power (yes, they call it that in camping) we use gas.

Mike, a couple of points

I assume you will be using Lifepo4 for storage. In which case what you see if what you get, !00Ahrs means pretty much 100Ahrs. I use solar, mppt and inverter to provide a backup to mains power in my home I have a 200AHr battery, which I think cost me around £650. During the summer I run the heating continuously off this system but come the winter switch back to mains and use it as a backup in case of a power out. Consumption is higher in the winter and recharge not so effective. This is charged with 4 of 120Watt panels through 2 MPPT chargers (second added recently). The nice thing about the setup is that the battery controllers will manage overcharge and well as undercharge. I typically run the system on solar until I run the battery flat (no damage done). Last year on 100Ahrs it was soon after I started heating the house, sometime end of September. This year maybe it will last a bit longer. In the summer it is just providing hot water to the house (log boiler controllers and and pumps).

I have a similar system on my F21, 200Ahrs at 12V or 100Ahrs at 24v which I use for my electric motor backup propulsion. I have 2 50Watt panels and in the summer when I do most of my sailing, with computers, instruments, radio and tiller pilot, I barely use a quarter of my reserve power during a cloudy day and if the sun is shining pretty much keep up with the drain.

If I were to start again I might put in an inverter and small induction hob but I have propane and have not used one bottle yet in 3 seasons. Mind you it is a simple system, 2 burners and manual shutoff at the tank after each use.

My advice however is to over provision on the storage/solar.

Best of luck with your eventual decision and install.

[quote=sforgey2 post_id=55657 time=1693757213 user_id=6153]
OK…I am now rather surprised, and could use some support here on our board.



For a number of years I tried to fine SOME way, ANY way to get a new horizontal tank for my F-32 and no one had ideas. My tank is original and is failing, hard to get anyone to refill it these days…event in Florida (where rules are “more like guidelines”).



I shopped my local tank dealers, called national manufacturers asked for help on this…they all say “we dont make 6lb horizontal tanks” and wont sell any of the parts to convert one from Vertical to Horizontal. I offered $500 for any of them to put one together and no one in Florida or Bay Area was remotely interested.



Then I see this post. Does ANYONE have a source for new tanks? Anyone who will make one?



Again I would gladly: Pay a lot for a new one, or Buy one that works that is getting rid of theirs.





My experience with the stove and tank is that it will last a season unless I am doing a whole lot of baking and not using my grill. So I love the gas, but getting a new tank is the dilemma.





ANY HELP HERE???





Thx



BTW - I have a gas AND electric system on my Little Guy Max teardrop camper (our land yacht) and event with two great batteries and an inverter - our induction hot plate blows through batteries rather quickly, let alone the micro. So unless we are on shore power (yes, they call it that in camping) we use gas.
[/quote]

I don’t think you will have any luck finding a worthington horizontal equivalent. I have a Mull 28 and it has the dual vertical tank locker. Those are available and look to be the same size as the horizontal.

Unless you want to rework part of your cockpit locker to accommodate vertical tanks, I think your best solution may be to find a vertical rail mount tank holder, run your hose to that, and simply use your existing locker for vertical tank storage.



Best,

Mark

Thanks Mark.

Yes, no luck about horizontal tank at 6lbs. No where. I thought I could pay someone to convert, but even in Ft Lauderdale seems no takers. I get that I can put a verticle tank on my rail, but with a F 32 Hoyt it isnt my favorite solution.

I you want to get rid of either of your tanks, let me know.



/s

Re alum horizontal tanks. Replacing my 35 year old tank is my backup plan. I hear you loud and clear on the flaky rules. It seems nearly impossible to get an answer out of anyone as to how old a tank can be before it must be scrapped even if in good condition. I have been tempted to bribe someone to fill it in the absence of anyone knowing the real rules.

Anyway, Worthington still makes them. I saw them in stock at West Marine a few months ago for $305. not including tax. Worthington tank still shows this tank in their product line, see link

WM is now out of stock. I hope this is not the end of production! I have a request for notification in with West Marine when restock occurs.

https://hcc.worthingtonindustries.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/hcc-spec-sheets/lpg_aluminum-portables_071222.pdf

[quote=SunnyIsleMark post_id=55656 time=1693754699 user_id=6331]
Mike- You’ve clearly thought things through and can make your plan work. I think collectively, as cruising sailors, we are at a similar juncture in technology as EV’s are on the roads. The technology is there but the practicality is highly dependent on specific needs and use patterns.

As interesting and forward thinking your proposed project is, I still think a simple propane renewal would be cheaper, easier and less complex at this point in time. (I don’t think that will remain true as battery, cooktop, and solar technology improves over the years.) I do hope that you will prove me wrong because we will all learn from your experiences. Best of luck!



Mark
[/quote]

Well, that is the value of this board. When I finished with my very long post, I started to ponder the simple alternative which would be to buy one new bottle now (assuming I can find one, see another post on the thread) and replace the other bottle when It empties. I would also replace all of the hoses and the solenoid/regulator assy. I can probably do that all for $500.



I hear you re the “new tech”. It can be rather seductive. Coincidentally, I leased an EV (Chevy Spark) in 2015. Returned it three years later. It was cool but really not ready for prime time. Sort of in line with your thinking re the propane to electric transition using current equipment.



I am keeping my eye on the “impossible to get 6Lb. horizontal aluminum tanks” discussion here.

Hi Mike -

With your low propane usage maybe a smaller tank like this one would work if it fits in your locker:

https://skagit.craigslist.org/bpo/d/eastsound-horizontal-propane-tank-new/7645916683.html

Supplement with 1 lb cylinder or two with an adapter.

I’m driving up to Blaine and back the end of this week if that would help.

[quote=sforgey2 post_id=55662 time=1693838945 user_id=6153]
Thanks Mark.



Yes, no luck about horizontal tank at 6lbs. No where. I thought I could pay someone to convert, but even in Ft Lauderdale seems no takers. I get that I can put a verticle tank on my rail, but with a F 32 Hoyt it isnt my favorite solution.



I you want to get rid of either of your tanks, let me know.







/s
[/quote]

Sorry, no plans to let go of either of my tanks. It’s strange that Freedom went from horizontal in the 30 to vertical in the 28. Not sure why, given that so many other aspects of the boats are so similar.

I’m curious though, where was the thru hull vent for the propane locker put on the 30? For some reason on the 28 they put it near the bottom of the lazarette (just above waterline) where it is easy to damage, rather than to the transom where it would be out of the way. The surveyor on my boat even suggested moving it. Other than that weirdness, the locker is arranged nicely and even has room for several 1lb canisters in front of the tanks.
[attachment=0]IMG_3502.jpeg[/attachment]

Yes…what a dilemma.

The F 32 horizontal 10 lbs fit so well in the coming boxes - room for one in each.

Getting a new tank converted seem impossible…cant find a source.

Combing box too small for any other tank type.

Sure, could use cheap green ones, but not very efficient.

I guess no one has any sources for conversion.

If you’re still looking, it appears that Fisheries Supply has exactly one in stock: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/worthington-cylinders-aluminum-lpg-cylinders-vertical-fix-189/299494

When I first saw this last week, they had 2, so they’re going fast.

If only they were Horizontal in orientation…could swap it off a 10lb tank you would think

I just removed my propane range to go electric. I have 1 -40 year old 10lb horizontal tank that obviously is no langer needed. I’m located in southern Ontario. Anyone who wants it and is willing to come get it can have it.
image.jpg

Tank has moved on to a new home.

As part of switching to electric-hybrid propulsion I’m removing my propane system. I have two horizontal 6lb tanks if anybody wants them for free. I’ve only had the boat for 18 months, so can’t vouch for them entirely. But I have used them and they don’t leak. They’re in Glen Cove, NY.

Ahoy Mike,
I’m interested in at least one tank. We also have a Hoyt 32 here in Bristol, Maine. We have one tank and could use another.
Erick
207 504-6535

I have a horizontal tank on my F32 with a leaking coupler. It seems nobody will replace the seal. A possibile solution is a 3lb upright tank. It doesn’t hold much, but will fit in the locker.