Any one have any experience with ence with the newer sailomat windvane design 700 or 760?
Or the hydrovane. I know they’re very different. Wondering if anyone has actual performance experience with these.
Thanks
Alan,
Fyne Spirit is fitted with a Hydrovane with which I have had limited experience. Because the auxlliary rudder is so small it gives the impression that it’s not particularly positive in its course keeping abilities. It relies fairly heavily on using the main rudder as a trim tab and the po made the comment that it was best to get the sails balanced with minimum weather helm to get the best from the Hydrovane. This neccessarily meant a loss in sailing performance while under the wind vane. The servo blade type steering gears are certainly much more powerful than the Hydrovane and I think I would be more optimistic about their ability to steer the boat in, for example, a heavy quartering sea. The Hydrovane on the other hand can be used as an emergency rudder and can also be hooked up to a small tiller pilot to steer the boat under motor. I wonder though whether it would have enough “grip” to steer under motor without using the main rudder as a trim tab. Cheers,
I should add that the Hydrovane is very simple and robust in its design and construction, both desirable qualities.
Hydrovane now has a larger rudder, also available for later fitting to older Hydrovanes.
Thanks for that info Michel. I will look up the site and see how the dimensions have changed from what I have. I would think a larger rudder would be a significant improvement. Of course, now you mention it, building a larger rudder wouldn’t be all that difficult. As it is a balanced spade, scaling up ought to produce a workable blade. I once built a scaled down version of a Schilling rudder. The design was for a retro fit unit to a fisheries research vessel. The scaled down version made a wonderful launch rudder, far superior to a conventional NACA or flap rudder. It was originally intended for an old launch I was restoring but proved too powerful for the steering gear. I eventually gave it to the owner of a classic 40’ launch and he now delights in the improved course keeping and can turn on a sixpence.
On the Hydrovane a reservation about a larger blade would be the strength of the shaft as regards the increased bending moment it would be subject to.
A new larger Hydrovane rudder is priced at EUR 456. They explain why they use nylon for the rudder: it bends when hit by an object or touching the ground, thus saving the expensive shaft.
Here’s a copy of the rudder description on the Hydrovane site (NB I have no interest whatsoever in Hydrovane - wish I had).
TWO RUDDERS
TWO RUDDERS - The combined effect of two rudders working together is perhaps the most significant advantage of a separate auxiliary rudder system. For downwind sailing in particular, the main rudder can provide the greatest yaw resistance only if it is fixed. To this natural stability the nimble HYDROVANE rudder is tempered to the conditions resulting in yet further yaw damping - which means a more comfortable ride, a straighter course and less potential to lose control in bad seas and risk: broaches, crash gibes and knock-downs.
NEARLY INDESTRUCTIBLE - The rudder is manufactured in solid cast nylon – perhaps the largest single piece of nylon that one may see in a lifetime. With over 20 years of history these rudders have proven to be nearly indestructible. We have yet to see one of our rudders damaged from hitting a submerged obstacle. We believe that on such impact the rudder flexes, bends to absorb the blow then merely fends off the intruder - often unbekownst to watchkeepers and leaving little trace - maybe a scratch but never a gouge - the nylon is so tough … and flexible.
Avoids Snagging Commercial Fishing Gear - Neither do we hear of the rudder being fouled by commercial fish nets or lines - because:
- Tapered shape - helps line slip off
- Flexibility - rudder bends under load helping such gear to slip free
- Not very vulnerable with hull and keel in front acting as protective barrier
Easy Removal - The rudder is designed for easy removal with a quick release pin that is easily ‘popped out’ with a boat hook. A tether must be kept on the rudder at all times.
RUDDERS - all solid poured/cast nylon
- Original (short - 950 mm./37.5") - 1980 to 2005 - 8 kg. (17.6 lbs.)
- First longer version - 1105 mm./43.5" - 2006 to 2009 - 8.5 kg. (18.7 lbs.)
- Latest July 2009 onward - 10.5 kg. (23.1 lbs.) - 25% heavier … maybe 50% more power
OUR RUDDER – For nearly 30 years the rudder has been made of solid nylon poured into a mould. Other than a few manufacturer’s defects the rudder has proven to be unbreakable – an enormous virtue. Over the years various improvements have been made – lately getting larger and thicker. Customers/owners are typically so happy with their rudders - having little interest in upgrading to the newer and larger versions. In 2006 the length was increased by 5.5 inches/14 cm. In June 2009 it got thicker by adding 5 lbs./2.3 kgs. – now weighs 23 lbs./10.5 kgs. The improvements are designed for bigger and faster boats producing more power with less force required to control it. For smaller boats and big high speed boats we shorten the rudders - not needing the extra power or optimizing performance.
The latest version has been named the ‘TH’ – a tribute to our ‘in house engineer’, Ted Hargreaves. Ted inspired the upgrade based on his aeronautical experience with foils. After the first test Ted reported that it is ‘scary’ as it was so much more powerful but so light to the touch - easy to control - couldn’t believe that it could be that good without stability issues. Now we know that it is not ‘scary’ at all - but very stable. It is a vast improvement. We strongly recommend the upgrade for any owners with older versions of the rudder who would like the extra power.
Thanks Michel, your blood’s worth bottling! ( a local saying)
Very interesting information and I will have a close look at my setup this weekend. I have two blades on board but I suspect they are both the small version. The improved performance of the TH blade sounds very attractive. Now I have another item on the wish list!
I’ve got a Hydrovane on my wish list too, my mouth waters when I look at the nifty mechanism. But when I look in my wallet, my mouth gets dry again. 
I have a Hydrovane on my Freedom 40 cat ketch with standard barn door rudder and it works well, and even better with mizzen down. The company is also very supportive. I tend to sail with just the (admittedly enlarged) main in over 12 or so knots of wind anyway once the wind is through the beam.
s/y Vasco da Gama
Kemer, Turkey
www.strathcarrons-ahoy.com
How does the wind vane operate properly with an overhanging mizzen boom, like the cat ketches have?
Tom
Tom,
Have a look here.
http://web.me.com/strathcarron/Strathcarrons-ahoy/Photos_08.html#2
Ian Strathcarron removed the bumkin and perhaps shortened the wishbone.
Tom - another good reason to use just the main with a vane. The mizzen wishbone end doesn’t interfere with the airflow to the vane. Actually the mizzen wishbone is standard length, but I added 50 cm to the main wishbone and increased the main sail size accordingly.
Mike
Just to let you know that ‘Paradox’ came with a Hydrovane which would be about the same age as yours I guess, plus a spare rudder. She also came carries a manual for the device so if you don’t have one I could scan and upload. Let me know. Early winter here so not much going on boatwise. The marina sailing club were out in force today starting their frostbite series - I was quite glad the sails were off the boat! Cheers,
Brian
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the thought. I’m pretty sure I’ve a manual on board. We’ll be heading off on our summer adventure shortly, probably sailing on Xmas day. The plan is to head to Wellington, then Marlborough Sounds. Nelson, and Abel Tasman National park before returning to Lyttelton around 10 Jan (far too soon), This relies on southerly winds on Xmas day. If its northerly we’ll head to Akaroa and wait for a southerly. Had a good training day on Saturday with strong Norwest follwed by southerly front. We were experimenting with reefing combinations and were surprised how well she sailed in 15-20K with triple reefed main and double reefed foresail. Still pointing well and 6.5-7K speeed. When the front came through we had 40 knots for a time and clocked 10 knots on a reach in flat water - very happy with that!
Cheers, Mike
I am recent on the forum.
I have a Hydrovane on my 45ft aft cockpit. Have used it for nearly 2000 miles now.
Here is my experience.
Being not a servo-pendulum type it’s not forgiving when not balancing the boat’s rig. It’s a well designed, sturdy built piece
of quality equipment and it forces you to balance the rig, otherwise it does’nt work. But when it does work, it’s perfect.
Sailing to windward poses little problems for balancing, off the wind is a different matter altogether.
For instance: in a 20 knot beamreach I already take in one reef for balancing. ( The boat has the big camberspar jib on the
bowsprit.)
When the wind is too high for balancing but relatively constant I use the fixed main rudder as ‘yaw’ and let Hydrovane stear course.
When the wind is too high and gusting I use a combination of Hydrovane and autopilot. I set the autopilot response to slow and allow more yaw before
responding. Most of the steering is done by the Hydrovane, autopilot starts supporting when the boat is too long and/or too much of course.
The combination steers the boat very well while reducing wear & tear and powerconsumption on the autopilot substantially.
I did choose the Hydrovane while it has the possibilty of mounting it off centre thus saving the swimming platform.
I tried the option using it as an emergency rudder. Works perfect: ‘as long as you balance the rig’. But that’s only fun,
it forces me to pay attention to sailshape and tell tales, in short: it keeps me sailing. Nothing wrong with that, is it?
Regards,
Back from the big adventure now and have a little more experience with the Hydravane. I can concur with much of what Hans has to say but I must say I am rather dissapointed in the performance of the unit overall. Perhaps it is due to my poor sailing skills but I found performance ok on all points of sail in steady breeze below say 15 knots, and ok forward of the beam above 15 knots. Up to 20 knots off the wind wing and wing was ok too but above this it was unable to control the yaw and the vessel would set off on a reach which the unit could not correct - insufficient power. I dropped the main altogether, running with just the foresail and the steering was hopeless. Once the boat started to yaw either way she would over power the steering and get onto a reach which the unit could not correct. Hans’ idea with the autopilot might help but I have noticed that the pilot alone in the same situation also cannot correct it. I suspect this may be due to insufficient helm applied due to travel limitations of the ram as the only cure is to disconnect the pilot and apply more helm by hand to get her back on course. Once back on course the helm is light again. Speed through all this was between 6 and 7 knots so I don’t think we were over canvassed. Thoughts of a servo pendulum gear come to mind but, while a lot more powerful but the problem might be more to do with the amount of helm that can be applied to correct a major yaw.
Our Hydravane has the small 950 mm rudder so a bigger blade would improve performance.
Incidentally up to 15 knots we had a good sail under Hyrdravane with double reefed main, spinnaker and full foresail. It seemed to work best on the fine setting
Happy new year and best regards,
Guys,
Since I’m in the process of selecting a windvane steering gear and am considering the Hydrovane, I relayed your accounts of recent experiences to John Curry of Hydrovane and asked him for comments. Here is his reply:
Hi Michel
I appreciate you splicing us into this dialogue.
I am very intrigued by the Freedom boats – their virtues seem ideal for the single hander or short handed crew.
At a boat show I had a good talk with Derek Hadfield (Vendee Globe and VELUX 5 Oceans Race 2010 single handed racer). One assumes those guys are always sailing on the edge – not so – actually, very conservative – have to be, as any accident puts them out of the race. They are manic about boat balance – says the tiller/wheel is always light to the touch – said he could almost always handle his tiller with his baby finger.
If the Hydrovane is losing control the answer is always in the balance of the boat. In Mike’s case the autopilot was challenged and I am sure when he took the wheel himself he found steering to be very challenging. At that point he should have gone to work on his sail trim. Any self steering system – autopilot or the mechanical type – should not be engaged until the boat is virtually steering itself – otherwise an autopilot will soon burn out or a mechanical system simply cannot cope (any version – not just a Hydrovane).
I have sailed on a boat with an unstayed carbon fiber mast while using a Hydrovane to steer. On a close reach in building wind the mast bent considerably changing the shape of the sail – corrupting the balance of the boat – requiring re-setting the main rudder position. We see that fellow regularly – loves his Hydrovane – since developed techniques to keep the boat balanced.
For downwind and off the wind sailing on conventional boats we recommend the use of poles and vangs to stabilize the sails. A sail that is folding or gyrating completely corrupts the balance of the boat – defeating the suitability of the position the main rudder is locked in …. and further problems can evolve.
The unstayed cat boats have much different dynamics compared to the traditional rigs – only means different methods to deal with boat balance. The ultimate test is just the same – take the wheel/tiller yourself to see how it feels. If the boat wants to head in a different direction then more adjustment is required.
The Hydrovane only has its certain amount of power (now more powerful than the units of Hans and Mike) – enough to handle 50 foot boats at 10 knots plus or ghosting in 4 to 6 knots apparent wind. It is not whether the Hydrovane can handle the boat but whether the boat can be trimmed to suit the Hydrovane – typically more a function of the sailor’s skills in sail trim than the sails or boat.
In the last 2 years we have made some significant improvements in the Hydrovane’s performance:
-
2008 – added Mid Bearing and improved bearing material – easier movement - shaft no longer sticks when under heavy load -
2009 - new Rudder – finally perfected – at least 50% more power but easier to control/drive -
2010 – new Con Rod design and assembly – a tighter system, more responsive – and 33 times stronger
We have no reluctance in encouraging you to use a Hydrovane for racing as long as you know that it will not solve an unbalanced boat – only the sailor can fix that.
Best regards
John
John E. Curry, C.A.
Michel, thanks for introducing John to the discussion. I did exactly as he suggested in regard to sail trimming to the lightest helm possible and then trimming with the main rudder. In practice very small amounts of helm were required to trim, probably less than 5 deg. So, if you can picture 20 knots from astern, foresail only, boom out to stbd, and only a very slight bias port or starbd on the main rudder, everything light. Then something happens, a sea maybe or a change in wind strength would cause the vessel to yaw either way. She may go to port on a reach or gybe to stbd. the fact that she would go either way indicates she is reasonably balanced. As the vessel turns across the wind, weather helm increases and the trim in the main rudder is no longer sufficient to compensate. The boat is now unbalanced and the vane cannot correct the situation. The hydraulic autohelm goes to maximum travel but aslo does not apply enough helm to correct in this situation. Greater helm must be applied manually to bring the boat back on course, and then we are back in balance and everything can be reset until the next yaw. The boat speed is about 6 knots, not excessive,and the foresail sheet is right out. It seems to me that what is required is a more powerful early response to the yaw to prevent the vessel yawing so far that the balance changes. I experimented with the settings on the vane and found the coarse setting, more travel but less power caused more yaw, but the fine setting, less travel more power seemed to give better control for the most part. The larger blade, giving the vane more “grip” might be more effective in controlling the yaw at an early stage.
The servo gears are of course a lot more powerful and could conceivably be geared to give considerable travel to the main rudder, perhaps enough power and travel to correct this type of yaw. Or the fact that main rudder is doing the steering may prevent it happening altogether.
Once you have reduced sail to just foresail, and speed below hull speed so you are not over-powered, and you are running dead off the wind with a light helm, is there anything more that can be done in the way of trimming the boat to reduce the weather helm that occurs when the boat yaws off course.
Mike,
From what I understand in all of the above, it’s important to make sure the correction needed to counter the yaw needs to start quickly. Otherwise the yaw has gone so far that neither the main rudder nor the Hydrovane can correct it. Perhaps the new Hydrovane rudder (longer, thicker) would cope. John Curry assures us that this rudder has enough power and lift to keep longer boats at higher speeds on course - provided they are balanced. He also suggests what Hans Hansen did: use the autopilot in conjunction with the vane. This would have a better effect than a fixed main rudder on courses off the wind.
I wonder if it would help against yawing if you leave up some part of your main (aft) sail too. My experience is that if you can wing out the foresail (on a broad reach), boat balance is much better and broaching is countered by the foresail on the windward side. I need only minimal steering corrections under these circumstances.
I personally have bad experiences with several brands of wheelpilots; they are seldom up to the job. Because of the small motors they have a large gearing making them slow to respond. A hardover time of 10 - 12 seconds is what you need and these wheelpilots can’t provide that. I’ve burned a whole lot of them on my F33/35 catketch, but that’s a really hard boat for them with its huge rudder.
Anyhow, I want a wind vane that can cope even if the boat is pushed hard. Pushing hard does not necessarily mean that the rig is unbalanced, as described above with the foresail set out to windward. My vintage Robertson AP20 + Hynautics hydraulics can cope with broad reaches (full main and mizzen) and speeds of around 10 knots. It’s sometimes scary if the boat yaws and you start preparing for an unwanted gybe, but Captain Rob gets her back on track each time. I would hope the Hydrovane can do that too, if necessary together with the Robertson.
First I would like to say I have found this thread on windvanes very informative and want to thank all those who have posted. Second, I would like to introduce myself as while I have been lurking here for a short while , this is my first post. My name is Rick, I live on the east end of Long Island, NY and recently purchased a Freedom 33 catketch with the standard booms. I would like to optimise herfor single handed, long distance cruising and one of the things I am looking to add is a windvane. I wonder what types are suitable for these boats. I see that the hydrovane appears to be the vane of choice, and wonder why that is. regards, Rick, SV SEASOP, Greenport, NY 